Higher hardness 1095

M

Maximumbob54

Gold Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2024
Messages
1,073
Does anyone have any experience with knives in 1095 or similar simple steels that aren't stuck in the realm of 55 to 58 HRC??? I've been following someone on YT that had a custom maker do a smaller fairly thin fixed blade in 1095 at a 60+ HRC. Some light wood processing and a little not overly harsh baton use but enough that I assume the edge would crumble or a whack later and it would crack. Nope. And the knife still cut through paper. Which I know is not the end all be all test but once again you would think it would be all chipped and rolled and instead swoosh right through.

So what gives? Just the most lucky person or is there some other reason we don't see 1095 any harder than the usual???
 
I do 26C3 high carbon at 63 to 64 RC. Slicing is the name of the game. EDC one myelf for several years now.

r3oaHnc.jpg


4Fp8RJb.jpg
 
Last edited:
Several of us played around with 1095 at 65 HRC and M2 at 66 HRC a good 15 - 20 years or so here on BF. The difference in edge holding is unreal. Properly treated, you can get many multiples of edge retention over the soft 1095 everyone uses. It also sharpens up very easily, with minimal burr formation. As noted above, 1095 is not a tough steel (contrary to it's popular image), but combined with a thin edge, you get a slicer that will amaze you.

I've always wanted to replace the blade in my Opinel with one of those 2 hard steels. Talk about a match made in heaven.
 
The "soft for toughness" is the answer I'm used to seeing with 1095. But how "not tough" are we really talking about? How hard can you use 1095 at 62 HRC before you need to ease back or it's going to break?

I confess to being a goof and using a baton more than once or twice on a knife, but I knew full well I was at risk of breaking the knife. That would 100% be on me. So would the line just be don't be silly and baton harder 1095? Do you just have to be mindful the edge may give way if you torque into some harder dry wood which I don't know why I would be doing in the first place with once again an unsuited tool?

Even a small folder like just about any Case seems like it would be great at a higher hardness 1095. But instead everything is in the usual range.

This thread may be feeding my range to order a custom knife and do some backyard camping shenanigans...
 
sodak said:
Several of us played around with 1095 at 65 HRC and M2 at 66 HRC a good 15 - 20 years or so here on BF. The difference in edge holding is unreal. Properly treated, you can get many multiples of edge retention over the soft 1095 everyone uses. It also sharpens up very easily, with minimal burr formation. As noted above, 1095 is not a tough steel (contrary to it's popular image), but combined with a thin edge, you get a slicer that will amaze you.

I've always wanted to replace the blade in my Opinel with one of those 2 hard steels. Talk about a match made in heaven.
Click to expand...
Have to ask why did everyone stop? Everything about it sounds too good like I'm just waiting for the hammer to drop on an "oh duh" type moment.
 
DeadboxHero said:
It's just not easily mass producible.

The devil is in the details.
Click to expand...
What is it that makes it not able to be mass produced? I'm used to hearing about place like "Peters" that you apparently just have to put in the order and they will make it happen.
 
Last edited:
Maximumbob54 said:
Peterson Heat Treating. Facility that apparently many places use.
Click to expand...
Well the details are important, HRC is not universal, it's the microstructure that makes up that HRC.

It would be like saying body weight is a universal number for strength but body composition is very important, it's not just body weight alone.

Some things that are done to scale heat treatment to higher volumes are not as beneficial to the steel, especially with steels that can easily put too much carbon in solution or have problems with not fully hardening resulting in a knife that can be more brittle at a lower HRC or even lower strength at higher HRC.


Microstructure is very important.
 
Similar to Spyderco making a true zero ground edge and then having to add a secondary bevel, there is no room for forgiveness with such heat treatments.

Alvin Johnson was the makers name. He ground his blades straight razor thin and hardened them well above what most people use for knives. O1 at 64 JRc, 1095 at 66 HRc, A2 at 63, and M4/M3 at 65 were his steels of choice. However he made kitchen knives and replacement blades for slip joint pocket knives; nothing you’d ever want to baton.
 
me2 said:
Similar to Spyderco making a true zero ground edge and then having to add a secondary bevel, there is no room for forgiveness with such heat treatments.

Alvin Johnson was the makers name. He ground his blades straight razor thin and hardened them well above what most people use for knives. O1 at 64 JRc, 1095 at 66 HRc, A2 at 63, and M4/M3 at 65 were his steels of choice. However he made kitchen knives and replacement blades for slip joint pocket knives; nothing you’d ever want to baton.
Click to expand...

If you're using production knife geometres a knife will baton just fine if the heat treatment is not garbage.

However, I feel It's certainly more exciting to take advantage of the heat treatment to push very thin geometry and axes and crowbars are cheap cheap cheap.
 
knarfeng said:
I believe you mean "Peters' Heat Treating"
Click to expand...
LS6PGNo.png


knarfeng said:
It's not the heat treat that's difficult. It's making the knife out of such hard brittle steel.
Click to expand...

Well some heat treatments will be more brittle than others even at the same HRC, there can certainly be limitations with mass production treatment.

As far as difficulty, I disagree. The 3% soft iron carbide makes it pretty easy to grind. 1095 even at high HRC It's still easier to grind than S35vn at 59-60rc.

It's those pesky carbides that destroy abrasives.
 
Maybe in general its heat treated lower so the average person can sharpen it easy ?
 
DeadboxHero said:
LS6PGNo.png




Well some heat treatments will be more brittle than others even at the same HRC, there can certainly be limitations with mass production treatment.

As far as difficulty, I disagree. The 3% soft iron carbide makes it pretty easy to grind. 1095 even at high HRC It's still easier to grind than S35vn at 59-60rc.

It's those pesky carbides that destroy abrasives.
Click to expand...
I was thinking about drilling holes for handles and final finishing without chipping the hardened blade.
 
I think making this thread has pushed me to pursue this further. Something smaller to resist the urge to break it with a baton, thin and slicey enough I want to try cutting anything within blade size reasoning, and thin behind the edge without being brittle. Maybe like an Izula put on a diet to thin it out. But a bit longer blade and handle. Rounded like a puukko but the blade still drops down enough to keep fingers away. But above all at least 60-62 HRC.
 
knarfeng said:
I was thinking about drilling holes for handles and final finishing without chipping the hardened blade.
Click to expand...

It's not really a concern in the production setting. When the steel is bought and received it is in the annealed condition from the mill. Manufacturers often have there blades cut out from the sheet with laser or water jet including the holes for the handles. All of that is done before sending out for heat treatment.

There can be some important details missing in the HT causing problems even at the same HRC

For a custom knife, you also drill the holes in the tang before hardening not after so it's not a factor.

As far as chipping during finishing, that is a big sign that the heat treatment is straight junk or very poor practices are being used which either can be ruled out.


Here is an example, I made and heat treated a knife in 1084 which is 64.0rc after tempering.
fE0VjYo.jpeg



After finish grinding in prep for hand sanding, no chipping, again handle holes drilled before HT.

DGmYiWi.jpeg


After hand sanding and tapering tang nice and thin again, no chipping.
[Video]
https://imgur.com/xNFYdnM


After finishing and sharpening the knife, no difficulty in sharpening and no chipping.
5XPieef.jpeg



Now we can certainly use a different heat treatment and temper to the same hardness and make it into a chippy brittle piece of junk.

Microstructure, Microstructure, Microstructure.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top