Higher RC steels hold lower edge angles better?

Waking this thread back up :o. I had some similar questions and didn't want to start another thread really. So my question is:

We all see alot of steels compared in terms of toughness. And M4 seems to pop up pretty often as far as a tough steel goes. My question is, on Crucibles data sheet ( if I remember correctly ) it was only a few pounds higher in a Charpy V Notch test versus S30V. So, is it still considered tougher than S30V given that it is scoring higher than S30V while on average being ran 4-5 points higher in the Rockwell scale? I mean I know compared to 3V and S7 most steels are not tough at all. I think S7 is somewhere in the 120lb range on Charpy testing?
 
Higher toughness at higher hardness would certainly be considered tougher, especially with as much as a 5 point difference. IMO, none of the current crop of super steels is really tough, except 3v. My perception may be skewed though, as I've tested steels at over 290 ft-lbs in a V-notch test, at -40 deg.

A point about the impact testing. I have not read the data sheet, but you may want to double check the type of notch used. Cutlery steels like you reference are generally tested with a C-notch or without a notch. They are generally not tough enough to use the V-notch at the hardness levels for knives.
 
Higher toughness at higher hardness would certainly be considered tougher, especially with as much as a 5 point difference. IMO, none of the current crop of super steels is really tough, except 3v. My perception may be skewed though, as I've tested steels at over 290 ft-lbs in a V-notch test, at -40 deg.

A point about the impact testing. I have not read the data sheet, but you may want to double check the type of notch used. Cutlery steels like you reference are generally tested with a C-notch or without a notch. They are generally not tough enough to use the V-notch at the hardness levels for knives.
Makes sense. Thanks. So is the impact test perhaps where they place the rectangle of steel in a vise, hit it with a pendulum styled weigh, and examine the break?
 
Yep, that's it. V-notch is used for the toughest alloys, while unnotched samples are used for the lowest toughness alloys, with the C-notch being in the middle. A steel that was 70 or 80 ft-lbs on the V-notch might just stop the hammer on an unnotched test. Or, a steel that was 30-40 on an unnotched test might be less than 10 ft-lbs on the V-notch test.
 
Yep, that's it. V-notch is used for the toughest alloys, while unnotched samples are used for the lowest toughness alloys, with the C-notch being in the middle. A steel that was 70 or 80 ft-lbs on the V-notch might just stop the hammer on an unnotched test. Or, a steel that was 30-40 on an unnotched test might be less than 10 ft-lbs on the V-notch test.

Ok interesting. So back to some of the earlier discussion. Since it is pretty well agreed that thinner geometries can really show what newer steels are capable of. Then does toughness somewhat help with it's edge holding? I am thinking: Take a blade made out of M390, it is 1/8" stock and .01 behind the edge. It has a 10* per side secondary bevel, no tertiary bevel. Now, since it can be taken to a higher rockwell ( I believe 61RC is ideal? ) it will resist lateral loads more than say S30V at 59RC with the same specs? So if you are cutting a medium such as cardboard where harder impurities are a high possibility ( dirt ect ) is this where a steels toughness comes in to play? If I understand the two main causes of dullness are rolling, or chipping of the apex.

It just seems that with a thicker edge it would in general resist both chipping and rolling more than really thin geometries. But then is that where the thinner geometry comes into play with less force being applied because it cuts through easier.

I guess some of it just seems counter intuitive so forgive my rambling. I would just like a firmer grasp on what makes steels perform. Seems like with steel there are compromises between what they can handle thin geometries ect.
 
Charpy testing really only applies when blades are used on impact based tasks, like chopping and batoning. I'll have to think about the rest, and type when off my phone.
 
Ok, there are 4 mechanisms of dulling we need to be concerned with:
deformation/rolling
chipping/fracturing
abrasive wear
corrosion

Based on my testing, deformation/rolling is the primary mechanism. Higher hardness (strength) counters this. Edges are very thin, and low forces will result in high stresses because of this. Higher strength (hardness) allows the edge to be deflected and return to true when the stress is removed, rather than stay bent.

Bear with me, still thinking.
 
Ok, there are 4 mechanisms of dulling we need to be concerned with:
deformation/rolling
chipping/fracturing
abrasive wear
corrosion

Based on my testing, deformation/rolling is the primary mechanism. Higher hardness (strength) counters this. Edges are very thin, and low forces will result in high stresses because of this. Higher strength (hardness) allows the edge to be deflected and return to true when the stress is removed, rather than stay bent.

Bear with me, still thinking.

Thanks for taking the time. I know there are a ton of variables. Seelow, glad you are enjoying it :).
 
Ok, now lets see if I can address chipping/fracturing. This one is more complicated, at least to me. All steel have a range of load and deflection where they will deflect and recover after the load is removed. This is called the elastic region. In this region the steel acts just like a VERY stiff spring. This is what I was talking about with high strength (hardness). Once you exceed this elastic region, the steel (and any other metal for that matter) will either bend or break. Bending is permanent and does not recover when the load is removed, ALTHOUGH any elastic deflection will still recover. Picture a steel rod in a vice. Deflect it 20 degrees and let go and it will return to straight. Deflect it 21 degrees and it will start to bend, but when released, it will still recover the original 20 degrees of elastic deflection, and you will be left with a 1 degree bend. These numbers are just examples. In reality, even the hardest steels will still bend just a little before they break, but you aren't likely to notice unless you are measuring very carefully.

To elaborate on this a little further, higher strength (hardness) will allow more deflection and still recover, and the effort to get the extra deflection will be greater. Again, take a bar of soft steel and bar of hardened, high strength steel and put them in a vice. You push on the annealed (soft) bar with 50 lbs, and get that 20 degree deflection. Pushing on the hardened bar with 50 lbs will get that same 20 degrees of deflection. They will both return to straight when released. Now, push with 60 lbs. The annealed bar will flex to 20 degrees, then start to bend, and you can push it to 30 degrees without a great deal of extra effort. When released it will return to 10 degrees of straight (30 degrees - 20 degrees = 10 degrees).

Here's where the difference comes between the 2. To get the hardened bar to 30 degrees will take 75 lbs. And lo and behold, when released it will completely return to straight. 40 degrees will take 100 lbs, 60 degrees will take 150 pounds and we might be able to go further, but at some point the effort will level out,it will start to bend, then break. For the sake of arguement, lets say it makes it to 80 degrees, then bends a little and breaks, and it took 200 lbs of effort to get there. We'll get a new annealed rod and lean on it with 65-70 pounds and it will make it to 80 degrees, but it won't break. It will still recover the same 20 degrees of deflection from before, but it's bent to 60 degrees permanently, and only took about 70 pounds to get there. Again, these numbers are just examples, but you get the idea. For my own sake, I'll say it to remind myself later. Stronger (harder) steel will take more effort to flex than softer steel, but once it's limit is exceeded, it will break, not bend. People have to decide what they want their knife to do.

So, dulling by fracturing/chipping. Here we go. If the load is fast, like chopping, the edge can chip from impact. This is where high impact toughness is a direct benefit. If the load is slow, you run into a property called ductility. This is a measure of how much bending can happen before fracture. Once that is exceeded, fracture happens, in all metals. So lets take an edge at high hardness and cut with it, say some wood, and we encounter a knot. We just keep on pushing until the edge goes through. Now the edge is very thin, so any force will produce quite high stress and deflection. If we push too hard and the edge deflects too much, it will bend, even if it's just a tiny amount, then break. Thus we have a chip, and the edge is dull. Steels with bad heat treatments can have very low ductility, and will bend and chip with very low deflections, even if they are relatively soft. Some will have such low ductility that they can't even form a burr during sharpening, it just breaks off, leaving a dull edge behind. These steels will have chipping issues cutting even things like wood and cardboard, and will dull from fracture/chipping, even on relatively soft material.

I'm still thinking, so I'll get to wear tomorrow.

Edited to add: I keep putting hardness in parethesis when I say strength. That's because hardness testing was developed to allow a minimally destructive test to estimate strength. Higher hardness means higher strength. In individual heat treatement or metal manufacturing plants, some in house testing will get an accurate chart that can convert hardness to strength. Generic estimates are also possible from hardness charts on the web, but the in-house ones will be surprisingly accurate. Both in-house and generic hardness/strength charts are alloy specific.
 
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