Hilting a Mora stick tang

B

Bo T

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Feb 12, 2011
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Hi, I am new to Blade Forums. I have put handles on a couple of full width,full tange blades but have never put a hilt on a skinny tange. I have some ideas, but would like to get it right the first time.

I will use a Frost laminated blade with a full tange. It will be a working knife so beauty is not important to me.

Bolster/guard - I am thinking of using stainless steel washers, I am not sure how thick I should make it.

Wood - is elm a good choice? Since I will not be using ferrules, I would like a type resistant to splitting.

Epoxy/glue - ???? - I plan on using the knife year round. 130 degrees in the summer in my car to -20 degrees in the winter.

Bolster - stainless steel washers with the end of the tange heated and preened.

I haven't bought anything yet so any advice is welcome.

Thanks,
Bo Thomas
 
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Bo T said:
Hi, I am new to Blade Forums. I have put handles on a couple of full width,full tange blades but have never put a hilt on a skinny tange. I have some ideas, but would like to get it right the first time.

I will use a Frost laminated blade with a full tange. It will be a working knife so beauty is not important to me.

Bolster/guard - I am thinking of using stainless steel washers, I am not sure how thick I should make it.

Wood - is elm a good choice? Since I will not be using ferrules, I would like a type resistant to splitting.

Epoxy/glue - ???? - I plan on using the knife year round. 130 degrees in the summer in my car to -20 degrees in the winter.

Bolster - stainless steel washers with the end of the tange heated and preened.

I haven't bought anything yet so any advice is welcome.

Thanks,
Bo Thomas
Click to expand...

People haven't been knocking each other aside to take a crack at this series of questions so I'll give it a whack.

It's hard to answer the questions with the little bit of information you've given. A drawing or photo's would be helpful to better understand the knife you have in mind.

What is your background in working with metal? Are you 16 or 60 yrs old?

I'm a little confused with some of the terminology being used. You talk about getting a blade with a "full tange". Did you mean a stick tang that goes all the way through the handle? I think I've seen them referred to as "through" tangs (but I might be making this up too).

I think you're planning on using a Scandinavian style blade with a stick/hidden tang that goes all the way through the handle where you will peen the end (mash it down sort of like a rivet). If you heat the end of the tang for this process you'll probably burn your handle. I'm pretty sure it's normally done cold.

I've only made six stick tang knives. To me they are more difficult to make than a full tang style blade requiring more metal and wood working skills.

Bolster and/or guard, mmmm... if I had a picture of what it is supposed to look like I could talk as if I knew what I was talking about, but just because I DON'T know what I'm talking about doesn't mean I won't try to answer the question. You talked about using stainless steel "washers". It's probably just me but I immediately think of washers that you would get from the hardware store. I don't see how this type of stainless steel washer would work with it's great big hole in the center. But the concept of using stainless steel is sound. You want a piece of metal slotted to fit over the tang and slide down snug with the ricasso leaving no gaps showing(ideally). Brass is often used here partly because it is softer and easier to work than stainless steel. Metal as thin as a washer indicates to me a simple type of guard that might stick out a little bit. That should be doable.

Elm is not typically a first choice for handles. Why are you asking about elm? Do you happen to have some on hand? I have no idea if it would serve your purposes or not. Do you have an old hammer handle? If its wood is good enough for a hammer it should hold up to what you'll use your knife for. If you intend to use this knife really hard then perhaps you would consider a stabilized wood, or synthetic handle material such as micarta or G10.

For glue use a slow curing epoxy. There are brands recommended throughout the threads, but slow curing is a common trait. They tend to be stronger and work better.

Answers to most of your questions are buried in the threads of the forum. Have you been nosing around in them, doing searches on the topics you had questions about? If not then this would be a good time to start.

How do you plan to make a hole through your handle material for the tang? I can't help with that as I've never successfully done it.

What tools do you already have? Files, rasps, clamps, and sand paper are pretty useful to have.

Tell us more about your "vision", and about yourself. You will get more feedback when we know you better. We want you to succeed. Good luck.

- LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin
 
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Thanks for the info LonePine.
I've got most of the hand tools that I need. I've built some bookcases from scratch and a 8x12 shed. I had metal shop in High School. I have a drill press and belt grinder available at a friends but no lathe. I'm just shy of 60 and I'm making this knife because I have trouble spending $35 for a #2 laminated Mora when the #2 carbon Mora is $11.

I went ahead and ordered the blade from Ragnar and I will try to scan and post a sketch after I've had a chance to look at the blade up close. I've thought about what you said and I will probably order some brass rounds for the bolster and pommel. And you're right this will be a stick tang knife.
I'm thinking about elm because it is a lighter interlocking grain wood, with open pores and good resistance to moisture. If I remember correctly, elm felt a little rougher to the hand but provided a good grip.
I'll probably drill a hole through the hilt then open it with a file to accept the tang. I'll anneal the end of the tang so I can cold peen it. The epoxy needs to serve two purposes, bind the metal to the wood and add strength to those areas where to much wood was removed. If the slow curing epoxy does that then that is what I will use. I'll know more in a week or so.
Thanks for the information, it's helped.

Bo Thomas
 
Mr Thomas

I was just shy of 60 last year myself. I started making knives in 2008 and there’s no way that anyone could mistake my work for anything but homemade and amateurish, but heck, I’m having fun.

My one attempt at making a tang hole through a piece of micarta was less than successful. I suspect that you will have more luck than I did. I ended up cutting the tang off to fit the length of hole that I was able to make, and even then I switched to wood and inlet the tang into two pieces of wood and glued it together. This had some benefits. I retained what was left of my sanity, and I used a pin hidden by the two pieces of wood to help hold the tang in the handle material. The cast brass finger guard that came with the blade, well, let’s just say that I didn’t know what to do with it to make it look good. Heck, I can make my own ugly looking piece of brass. I don’t have to spend extra money for it.

Does your friend with the grinder have taps and dies? If you cut threads on the end of the tang then you could just screw on a pommel or incorporate a bolt somehow.

The only challenge with using stainless steel would be that it is a bit more difficult to work with. If that’s not a concern for you then full steam ahead. The extra strength would probably be useful at the pommel.

I didn’t know that elm had interlocking grain. The only thing I know is what my dad told me that elm doesn’t make good lumber because the boards get severely warped as they dry. I guess the grain grows in a spiral pattern or something. Coarse open grain is something else. It would certainly help with the grip. Would that be called “gription”? Normally people try to fill in the grain. Without some sort of finish or protection I could envision the handle eventually looking sort of, well, dirty, as oils, blood, mud, fish guts, apple juice, sweat, and other stuff works into it. There is one line of handle design philosophy that maintains that a good secure grip is provided by the way the handle is shaped rather than by the surface friction of the handle. Options to consider.

I’m pretty sure that epoxy will serve the dual purpose you need it to do. There is a particular brand that seems to be less susceptible to heat degradation and take shock loads better than others. JB Weld is the name. I’ve not used it myself but intend to get some after the weather warms up and I can get back out in the garage to work on knives again.

Just because I’m nosey, are you looking at maybe trying your hand at making more knives in the future or do you want to make just this one knife and that’s it. Regardless, I want you to succeed and I think you will end up with a knife that will do its job.

Paul Meske
 
Mr Meske

I received my blade from Ragweed Forge (Ragnar) on Thursday. It took two days for my order to get here across the continent. Amazing.
The blade looks good except that it is ground more on one side than it is on the other. I don't think this will effect the functionality of the blade but the laminate line is about 1/16" higher on one side. The one thing that I do not care for in the Mora knives is that they are not true from the factory. And it takes a LOT of work to make them close. I expect that I will spend time truing up this blade when I am finished. I will start sketches on the knife design this weekend. I'll also see if I can get a copy of Bo Bergmans' book from the library.
As an aside I also ordered a viking whetstone. The darn thing works!
JB weld seems like a good choice. I used it to make an alcohol stove out of aluminum cans. It kept its bond even though it got quite hot.
I think I will go with brass for the bolster and pommel and if I can't get an acceptable piece of elm then perhaps sycamore or hickory. I'll attemp to post my sketch or a picture later.
I don't think that I will make many more knives. I would like to set a hilt with pewter and perhaps forge and temper my own blade. I wonder how a chisel off of an old chisel harrow would work for a knife blade?

Thanks again for the advice,
Bo Thomas
 
Quote: "I wonder how a chisel off of an old chisel harrow would work for a knife blade?"

Who knows? My uneducated guess would be that the steel probably has enough carbon in it to harden it. A person may want to experiment with heat treating pieces of the steel to see how it reacts to hardening and tempering before trying it on a blade made from it.


Quote: "The blade looks good except that it is ground more on one side than it is on the other. I don't think this will effect the functionality of the blade but the laminate line is about 1/16" higher on one side. The one thing that I do not care for in the Mora knives is that they are not true from the factory. And it takes a LOT of work to make them close. I expect that I will spend time truing up this blade when I am finished."

This is surprising to me. But you say that this is a pretty common thing, huh? How do you correct this? Grinder? Files? JEDI light saber?

The stick tang knife had such problems with was a Scandinavian type blade. I'll have to check that to see if it was ground even.

- Paul
 
I may be a little late to this thread.I've made several scandi knives with the Mora blades.Give me a call if you like and I'll do my best to help. Too much to type for my pecking style.205-486-7479 If you don't get me just leave a message and # and I'll call back ASAP.
 
Hello Paul,
Since the blade is already tempered, the Jedi light saber wielded by a Jedi Knight. Otherwise, sharpening on one side for a couple of years might do.
I have to keep remembering that this is a $15 blade.
I bought a large number of Mora knives after reading an article on them. They get an A+ for being funtional at their price point but fail on the finish and detail. Out of the dozen or so that I bought, none of them had a clean, straight bevel. I guess that the details are why one buys a high end or custom knife. I'll try to get the sketch posted this week. I have it in my head, it may not look the same on paper.

Thank you for chipping in Mr Clark,
While this is an hour long project for an experienced knifemaker I will probably spend several months on it. right now I am looking for problems in my approach. Paul pointed out that an open grained wood might be good for the grip but bad for the grime, a point I hadn't considered. So, I am considering other woods. I'll probably give you a call before I start with the construction to discuss potential pitfalls.

Bo Thomas
 
I've finally got my drawing for my knife put together.

Avsppm006.jpg

Since I sketched it I have also been considering a leather grip with the leather circles.

Bo Thomas
 
Hey Bo,

The sketch seems pretty straight forward and "gripable".

I've never made a handle from leather so any advise I would give you would be pure fiction. But I like the look a a stacked leather handle, so I hope you do it and I'll learn from you.

- Paul Meske
AKA LonePine
 
I make stick tang knives. When I peen the butt-cap on I do not heat the tang, but if you are going to do that you have to make sure that that part of the tang is not hardend. If you are going to make the handle with leather washers make sure that it is compressed good enough before you peen it. If you do not you will have loose leather washers for a handle.
 
Paul
A friend of mine has some 8 and 9 iron leather scraps that are big enough to cut handle material out of, so a stacked leather handle it'll be. I ordered a 7/8" x 1/2" brass pommel from Janz as well as a couple of 1 1/8" brass spacers for the bolster.

Southclaw
I'll dry fit everything and make sure the leather is well compressed before glueing everything up, recompressing, and peening the end of the tang over the pommel. I'll run a countersink in the end of the pommel to clean up the look of the rivet a little. In the next couple of days I'll wrap the blade and anneal the end of the pommel. After I have everything together I'll try posting some pictures.
 
I finally got everything together and the end of the tang annealed.

IMGP0476.jpg

I'll round up the tang a bit more before I start. The 8 and 9 iron leather is heel leather for boots so I am not so sure that it will compress much. My friend also got me thinner, softer scraps that will compress a little.
I bought a brass piece for the bolster but the slot is too wide so I bought a brass spacer to fit in front of it so I can get a better looking seal around the tang. Do you think I should try to silver solder the spacer and bolster together(I've done some gas welding but no brazing)? Or should I just use JB Weld?
I'll drill a hole through the pommel and put a small countersink to tap the rivet into.

I'll make a wood jig to compress it and assemble it dry before putting it together with glue. I'm thinking about glueing the first quarter inch or so of leather around the tang and leaving the outside portion of the leather unglued.

If anyone sees any problems that I have overlooked please let me know. I plan on starting this weekend. I'm anxious to see if what I end up with resembles my original sketch.
 
Use a slow cure epoxy, and layer up the guard, leather, and pommel. Fully glue up every metal part and leather piece.You can start with JB weld on the guard if you wish ( to seal the joint at the slot), but I would not put any between the brass pieces. Clamp everything up and let it dry till just tacky ( starting to set up). Peen the tang and set aside for a day or two to cure. Grind/file the handle to shape, avoiding heat build up if using a grinder. Getting things too hot can break down the epoxy and also scorch the leather.
 
Bo T said:
I'll round up the tang a bit more before I start. The 8 and 9 iron leather is heel leather for boots so I am not so sure that it will compress much. My friend also got me thinner, softer scraps that will compress a little.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... What if... What if you put the narrow pieces of leather interspersed at regular intervals in the handle. I'm not sure how noticeable it would be, but YOU would know what you've done.

I've never heard of iron leather before. I'm smarter now than before I read this.

This is exciting! Good luck and keep us informed please.

- Paul Meske
 
I've handled a few Mora laminated blades in moose antler. The hard part is drilling the hole straight and widening it. A drill press would have been handy but I managed with a hand drill and an extra-long 1/8" bit. I fixed the blade with epoxy, didn't bother peening the end over but filed it flat. Nothing fancy but it worked. Those are great blades; a trapper friend I made one for says it's the best steel he ever used.
 
I figured I'd post some pictures to update my project.
First the 9 iron heel leather was too tough for cutting with my scissors or utility knife. My hacksaw made some in roads but slowly. I stuck to the softer leather; 8 and 9 iron and thinner pieces that were not meant for contact with the pavement. Here it is laid up.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=200547&stc=1&d=1301288375

Here it is roughed out.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=200548&stc=1&d=1301288409

And here it is now. The handle is about 3/4" bigger around than a Mora #1 but it fits well with my thumb on the back of the blade. I am pretty close to finishing it but I'll give it a good hand sanding to remove the singed leather from the 50 grit belt sander and to smooth it up a little. It does have a good feel to it now though.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=200549&stc=1&d=1301288442
 

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It's going to look real nice! What are the darker colored washers in the stack? How is it to work a stack of leather like that? Can you use rasps or is a grinder pretty much what's needed?

- Paul Meske
 
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