Himalayan Imports Khukuri's are customs

Understood, we just have different perspectives. I think of custom as being an aspect just like quality. Thus I don't really think of customs and noncustoms but a varying degree depending on how much of me is in the knife. If a knife has more than 50% of its design due to my input I would probably describe it as a custom, otherwise I would say something like "No its not custom, its his standard model I just had him use thinner stock and adjust the handle slabs to get the right balance point. If I had nothing to do with the design at all I would say something similar to "No, its a standard design."

-Cliff
 
Cliff, for the most part, the general custom definition would encompass your definition, except were if you went to Buck knives and gave them your design and they produced a million of them. Now your custom design is a production item. Just because you helped to design or it's all your design doesn't mean it's custom. That is probably why custom deals more with how they are made than how they were designed.

This is an argument that can never be settled, that's for sure.

The true definition of Custom is; "Made to order". This means to me that if you call Les and tell him, I want a Brend #2 and brend is the maker, then that is a custom, because Brend is making that knife for you. By the way did you actually order a Brend #2? You scumbag! Are you going to have it modified to G-11 and CPM-3V and if so are you going through Les? If yes to all the above, Les, can Brend make two at the same time? Hehe, my wife does not know to go into this forum.
 
When this thread started, some of the conversation dealt with the knives made in India, Nepal, and that region. I haven't had an opportunity to handle any but have seen some photos, and they are certainly made by hand (and with tools) but they're trash, just like lots of the brass stuff that comes from those nations. True, people make these knives, but most are of poor quality. If you want my humble opinion, factory knives are made by machines and grinders, as are "custom" knives. Difference is/was in the factory many people are involved in making a knife. In a "custom" shop, it's one or two guys making the knives, and the grind the blades by HAND. I feel it's okay for a maker to have an assistant or helper, because the knives they are producing are on specific patterns they came up with. Now, when a guy has 5-20 employees or more, no longer are these knives custom knives, IMHO. He's operating a factory, and you're getting factory or production knives, not custom knives that are hand made.
 
Bud,

I would be hard pressed to call my HI AK "trash". It's a quality piece from blade to handle to sheath. It's a lot of bang for the buck compared to some knives I bought from here.

Obviously, the labor is cheaper over there but that doesn't mean the product necessarily has to be cheap or "trash."

Sorry to digress from the "custom" discussion. Just didn't want a general aspersion left standing. There are two reputable dealers in these forums with many happy customers. I don't think they believe they have pieces of "trash".

sing
 
Bud, some knives made in Nepal are junk. So are some knives made in the US. Unless you are going to be specific it really does not offer much information to make such statements.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07 May 1999).]
 
Hey BUD, I bet that if I were to do a lot of chopping with my Himalayan Imports Ang Khola and one of your toughest knives, the H.I would outlast yours easily. It's easily one of the toughest knives ever made. The quality is excellent, given the tools being used. Many custom makers would be hardpressed to make a knife as good using the same tools. I'm not trying to put anything you might have down, but am just stating a fact.

There are many Indian and Nepalese made knives that are junk as well as most if not all Pakistani knives, but, there are also many custom American knives that are junk, ruined by poor heat treat or design.

But by your definition the HI may just be a custom, since there is not 5 people working on the knife itself. One man makes the entire blade including putting the edge and another may do the handle. 2 at most on one knife. It really does not matter, but it was just interesting.

Bud, you should check out an HI from someone who may have one near you. I think you will be impressed.
 
Bud, what is and isn't trash depends on your definition of quality. I suspect many art knives would fall apart quickly if they were used, as meticulously perfect in detailing as they are. Does that make them trash? Likewise, people like Dozier and many others cater to the using spectrum of the customer base. While superbly functional, many of these maker's knives, though they'll never fail a task, are (relatively) rougher than a cob in finish in the eyes of the art knife people.

The Himalayan Imports khukuris this whole thread started about are both pretty in my eyes, and superbly functional using pieces. Get one that fits you and is suited for your purposes, go out and use it, and you'll begin wondering whether the thing just has incredible ergonomics or there really is a spirit in the knife.

Moreover, I have a few relatively unfinished but 'tougher than a tank' khukuris made by village blacksmiths that are just as good as using tools as the H.I.s.

To sum it up I've owned a Winchester 21 side by side live pigeon gun, and I've owned a Savage 22lr/20ga combo gun. Both did the jobs they were designed for, and neither was junk.
 
I've been asked for some input to this thread so here it is.

First of all (and many may find this a bit strange) I'm going to defend Bud. He admits he has not handled any of these knives so for his information he is relying on the reputation they have delevoped over the years and it is not good. The junk khukuris imported from India have proven to be the biggest hurdle I've had to deal with over the years. However, if Bud will take the time to read the reviews and test results of the HI khukuris or use one personally I think he may qualify his statement. HI khukuris are far from junk.

What's custom and what isn't? I don't know but Cliff is right regarding the method of manufacture of the HI khukuri. It's a "do what you do best" operation. A master kami is responsible for the quality of the blade. He may assign some helper to cut the billet. He may get help pounding steel. He may heat the spring and place it on the anvil and employ two or three helpers to actually do the pounding. He will personally heat treat the steel and edge it. He doesn't do it all but he makes sure that whatever is done to that blade is done properly.

Making bolsters, buttcaps and handles does not require great skill so it would be a waste of very valuable skill and experience for a master kami to perform these tasks. Men of lesser qualifications do this work.

Sewing leather is far removed from pounding steel and the same reasoning applies here. A master kami at HI shop 1 or 2 will never make a scabbard. It's a waste for him to even try. There are others who are expert at this and they make the scabbards.

So, is an HI khukuri custom? I don't know. Is an HI khukuri handmade? I don't know (the kami uses a hammer, tongs, files, grinding wheel, etc. and not just his hands). Is an HI khukuri junk? If you consider the fact that it's made from a rusty junk leaf spring maybe it is. If you use it then it isn't. Seems a lot depends on semantics, definitions and viewpoints.

Uncle Bill
 
Bud, welcome to the free-for-all.

Ain't nobody I know of is mad at you, just that the Himalayan Imports stuff is the high quality exception to the general rule you are right about - most stuff coming out of the area you mentioned really is just junk.

Talk to Bill on the Himalayan Import Forum here, take a good look at his stuff, try it out and come back here and then we can have fun arguing some more about it.
 
I would call this class of knives "ethnic" more than "custom". Like Bud and others I would be cautious in calling these knives customs.

I have seen custom khukuris cut at the ABS cutting competition and they do the job.

Larry



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Larry :

I would call this class of knives "ethnic" more than "custom".
Click to expand...

Because they are not made in the US? I fail to see why the place where is it made determines if a knife is custom or not. That's almost as bad as Les's defination
smile.gif


I have seen custom khukuris cut at the ABS cutting competition and they do the job.
Click to expand...

And the "ethnic" ones will not? I would be interested in knowing which custom makers produce knives that are more functional as I am always looking for a better knife.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 13 May 1999).]
 
I think that first off, if every individual involved in the knife's construction is not represented on the knife by mark, it is at best a semi-custom piece. Makers of genuine integrity like James Piorek recognize this fact, and do not use the same mark on their "shop" efforts as their personal efforts.

Second, unless the knife is a TRUE one of a kind (not part of a series, or common pattern), or was significantly altered from the common delivery, TO THE BUYER'S ORDER, AT THE TIME OF CONSTRUCTION, it is a handmade knife, but not a custom.

WRT collaborations such as the Guild knife, all involved parties are represented, as such it is a custom collaboration, not a semi-production.

If such designations as "custom" are to have value, they must be applied uniformly, and with brutal honesty. I'd say that the Guild's definition is as good as it's getting right now, and even that needs to be re-examined.
 
Speaking of customs and khukuris, does anyone know of a knifemaker who will fit a G10 or G11 grip to a taper tang on a 25" khukuri?

Second, unless the knife is a TRUE one of a kind (not part of a series, or common pattern), or was significantly altered from the common delivery, TO THE BUYER'S ORDER, AT THE TIME OF CONSTRUCTION, it is a handmade knife, but not a custom.
Click to expand...

See Les, I am not the only one
smile.gif


-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 13 May 1999).]
 
Larry, your definition, of the fact that it's more ethnic or cultural is like saying that if it "ain't made here it ain't any good boy". A custom is a custom is a custom, no matter were you get it.

Brian, by your definition, there is probably 5 custom knife makers on the planet. Les, you will have to delete all those other makers from your list.

I think less has it right. Custom as defined for knives is the way Les stated. Custom as defined by guns is different and so on.
 
CLIFF,

I WILL TYPE THIS IN BIG LETTERS AND SLOWWWLLLYYY. PLEASE TRY TO FOLLOW:

CUSTOM KNIVES IS A CATEGORY, NOT A LITERAL TERM FOR EVERY KNIFE MADE!!!!

THE WORD CUSTOM CAN HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

YES, YOU CAN ORDER A KNIFE TO YOUR CUSTOM SPECIFICATIONS. THAT WOULD BE A CUSTOM KNIFE.

HOWEVER, WHEN PEOPLE WRITE OR SPEAK ABOUT HANDMADE KNIVES IN GENERAL, THEY ARE REFERED TO AS CUSTOM KNIVES!!!

CLIFF IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THIS DELINATION OF THE TWO MEANINGS BY NOW, THERE IS NO HOPE FOR YOU.

IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT AND YOURS ALONE THAT I HAVE TO CLOSE THIS THREAD! LOL



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
OH NOOOOO! not the DTC's(Dreaded Thread Closure)? What would it be, the 3rd one in Bladeforums history, compared to the 5,000,000,000,000,000th closure in knifeforums history? Ooops, no flames, I'm sorry. I take that back!
 
IMHO, the word "custom" is used entirely too loosely, but it has been around so long we are apparently stuck with it.

In my writing I usually use the term "custom" as a catch all category so people wont get confused.


But, "Custom" (at least in my mind) means

"one of a kind"
"made to a customers specific design/modification"
"uniquely tailored and made for a specific use"

Everything else is either:

1)"Handmade" by a single cutler, (like Les' now legendary Brend.)

2)"Benchmade" like a Bud Nealy, or Maddog.More than one persons hands "made" a particular knife)

3)"Semi-Production" a very limited run type product. Some Microtech's, Chris Reeve knives fit this bill. ie: handground blade, CNC handle, made by numerous people in batches, not to order.

4)Production-Most knife and specialty companies.

5)Mass production. Swiss Army, leatherman etc etc.

Now Les, I am not demanding that have to change the name of your company to "Robertson's Handmade and Benchmade Cutlery"
T
hat is just a prime example why the term "Custom" is used as a catch-all term in place of Handmade/Benchmade/Semi-Production knives. Its plain simpler!!

I believe the Knifemaker's guild was in error
25 years ago when they established their "custom" guidelines. No one ever anticipated or dreamed of the advances in technology or the growth of this wonderful industry.

It boils down to semantics. Personally,
I find myself using more and more terms to describe knives as our industry grows and becomes more specialized. Maybe this all is getting too complicated....
Maybe I should go back to collecting guns...


PS-I hope this thread is not closed.
I would like to get some maker's perspectives. Maybe RJ and Bob T can speak up?




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++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anthony P. Lombardo
-will destroy knives for
food-
 
If I had to make a guess, the word custom is used instead of handmade simply because custom sounds more impressive and thus is a stronger selling point.

Sorry Les, you used too many big words. That went right over my head - you are going to have to use a simpler description.

Personlly it does not bother me what they are called as long as I know what they mean by the term - I just find it an odd use of the word. I would be interested in how the makers actually describe thier work. For example if I worked out a design with Walter Brend and then ordered a #2 along side it, would he describe both of them as customs?

-Cliff
 
Cobalt -

Maybe only 5 custom makers in your world, but every one of my 20 or so customs are real customs, and I have many more friends whose personal craftsmanship I am looking forward to patronizing.

Every one of the custom knives I own involved me personally in the design, material selection, and ultimate presentation. And every one of them was created from the ground up by the maker, and if embellished, marked by the engraver. True, they were expensive, and took a long time - but that's what makes them truly valuable, and what makes a genuine custom knife different from knives produced in any other fashion. To include semi-custom, customized, and most patterned knives in the same category is incorrect.

Call Blade Rigger and ask them the difference between the two marks their knives carry. James will not mark a Blade Rigger knife with his JSP mark, even though he himself does all finishing, and is involved throughout the process. Only when the knife has been his personal project, start to finish, will he consider it truly custom, and appropriate to mark as such.

If you call John Greco, and ask for pretty much any knife out of his catalog, he'll just grab one of the four or five of that pattern he has sitting on a shelf, slip it into one of the general purpose, plain black sheaths that his wife has made, and ship it out. Regardless of the fact that his hands fabricated his design completely, the knife is not a custom knife, as John just bangs out dozens of the same patterns, and inventories them, rather than making each to order. It's a distinction that he reflects in his pricing - very few of his handmade knives go off at over $135.

Ask the makers if their knives are customs. If they are men of integrity (and most knifemakers are), they'll be happy to tell you exactly how their knives are made, and if they consider them "custom". This discussion has been had many times, but until the Guild changes their definition, I'm not changing mine.
 
Anthony

You are correct in some aspects. First, your right the Guild could not have aniticpated all the changes in technology as it concerns to knives.

For better or worse custom knives is a category as well as a term for a one of a kind knife or a modified factory handgun (actually this should be called "customized") Which is the term used when you modify a pre-exsisting design.

As for your different sub-categories of how knives are made. Those are accurate as well.

I am currently working on a new line of knives. Some of the prototypes will be at the Blade Show, but the ones for sale wont be showing up until late summer early fall.

These knives are all colaborations between myself and the maker. By Cliff's definition these would be custom knives. These knives will be limited to 25 knives per design (in most cases). Some will be offered with options.

So here is the question? If I design a custom knife, then offer a limited amount for sale, but you can put the options you like on it, is this now a custom custom knife?

Take the Krait for instance, Darrel Ralph and I designed that knife. It is offered with several different options, blade steel, frame material, coatings, inlays and serration's. I think we would all agree that this is a custom knife. Afterall it did not exsist until Darrel and I got together on this. However, to make it desireable to a larger consumer base, we offered several differnt options, so you could have the knife custom made to your specifications.

Anthony, thanks for letting me off the hook about changing my name. I had planned to leave it. After all I am the only custom knife dealer on the web, that sells ONLY custom knives.

Cliff, yes if you buy a standard Brend model 2 and a modified Brend model 2, they are both custom knives. One is a custom knife and the other is a custom custom knife.



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
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