History of American Tanto Point?

[bearcut]

There's nothing new under the sun...
except INFI.

What about NiTiNOL?

 

[searcher]

I believe the Cold Steel Tanto was originally imported from Seki City Japan by Taylor Cutlery and Cold Steel somehow took over the knife.

 

[markksr]

...

Does anybody have a copy of the movie to look at?

Thanx

I have an old copy in VCR so still images aren't sharp but in the scene after the river tussle with Bronson where Mifune is drying his blades it's obvious that the knife has a "tanto" tip

 

[iBlade]

It was often the case that a broken sword was reshaped into a short sword or knife, as another member pointed out.
Bu the OP was asking about the americanised tanto point, I understand that this is somwhat less dramatic than the armour piercing chisel point of a tanto?
The original point was designed to cut through painted bamboo armour (better term than this, not laminated but similar) and then the flesh/bones underneath with ease. They are good at this but, imo, make poor utility/skinning knives.
Also another knife that was popular was a version of a hawkbill that was used for taking the head of fallen warriors...

 

[Benjamin Liu]

I believe the Cold Steel Tanto was originally imported from Seki City Japan by Taylor Cutlery and Cold Steel somehow took over the knife.

That was the Taylor-Seto MCR-11 which was a copy of the CS Tanto. It was 440C with a cast aluminum handle and shaped like the CS Tanto. It first came in black and then one came out with a camo handle and then a "survival" version with a white and black speckled handle and a saw on the back of the blade. Sometime later I think they came out with a rubber handled version.

I have both the CS Tanto purchased in 1989 and MCR-11 purchased in 1985. They are not the same knives.

During the mid-1980s CS had an ad with an MCR-11 broken in several places when put to the CS tests.

I used mine for years for cooking, use around the house, camping, etc. and it did not break, but then again I didn't do anything stupid with it.

IIRC the original CS Tanto was first made by Buck and then they switched to a Japanese company.

 

[Tonie Nichols]

Bob told me that Lynn bought one of his customs at a California show and used it as the model for his first CS tanto. Bob really never had any hard feelings about it, it was just business to him. His wife, on the other hand, was not so forgiving. I tended to agree with her.

First hand info is always so revealing, thank you so much SG

 

[Tonie Nichols]

IMO just blade industry drama propogated by on-line pundits. :jerkit:

Bob Lum may well have been one of the first to combine tanto styling and modern knife materials and design. However, there was a wide varity of exitant blade and point profiles to be found in traditional Japanese bladed weapons. I don't see how anyone can claim that CS "stole" Bob Lum's design, when that design itself was derived from a long line of historical blade designs.

All that aside, if you look at two examples from each (in this case a Spyderco Bob Lum fixed blade tanto, and a Cold Steel Master Tanto), other than the fact that they are both tantos, they are not particularly similar in design, profile or point.

Bob Lum

Cold Steel

Very nice, thank you, I really appreciate your comments.

 

[Tonie Nichols]

OMG...what a great picture! Toshiro Mifune is THE MAN when it comes to samurai films.

Thank you so much for sharing it!

 

[Athame]

I was quite good friends with Bob and I can say that while we talked about many things rarely did we take about
the misappropriation of his tanto design. That doesn't mean that we didn't talk about it. I can remember him saying,
iirc, at the 2006 Solvang Show , that he was told--by whom I do not know--that CS was planing on copying his
design. The next thing he said was, "So, I changed it." He went on to say something to the effect that, he "knew" they
couldn't match his grinds and overall didn't seem too miffed over it.

The reason why I've dredged this thread up is one of my son's friends, who happens to be a knife aficionado-in-the making,
was asking me about Tanto knives so, ... we went to a few places on the internet, this thread being among them. There's a
second reason as well: I was watching/doing a little shadow sparing with a trainer and watching CS's Warrior Edge DVDs.
In one of the segments, LT quite assertively says something to the effect that : "I invented the Tanto Point for , ...."
It hadn't left my mind and I was somehow made to want to relay what I had heard from Bob. I'm not stirring any pot
by the way , just engaging in a little history. I've got no beef, nor moral high ground to maintain.

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

Term of "American tanto" blade appear to me very absurd, as Tanto have its origins solely in Japanese culture. Tanto was part of Samurai set, the shortest blade used in close quarter battle for stabbing,or slashing mainly. Tanto shaped blade is still a Tanto, shape that comes from old Japan, doesn't matter that style was adapted by many manufacturers arround the globe,we now can not identify differences between tanto blade from Italy, Germany, USA, or Russia,because it's still a Tanto shaped blade, that have only one origin - Japan. Same nonsense would be calling Jim Bowie knife made with some minor differences in Sweden, making up new term - "Swedish Bowie" ,because it would be still Bowie, knife with the typical American style blade. I d say, Tanto is a Tanto (no such a thing as "American" Tanto) and Bowie is a Bowie (no such a thing as Swedish Bowie) - speaking of terms.In my opinion.

 

[BladeScout]

Term of "American tanto" blade appear to me very absurd, as Tanto have its origins solely in Japanese culture. Tanto was part of Samurai set, the shortest blade used in close quarter battle for stabbing,or slashing mainly. Tanto shaped blade is still a Tanto, shape that comes from old Japan, doesn't matter that style was adapted by many manufacturers arround the globe,we now can not identify differences between tanto blade from Italy, Germany, USA, or Russia,because it's still a Tanto shaped blade, that have only one origin - Japan. Same nonsense would be calling Jim Bowie knife made with some minor differences in Sweden, making up new term - "Swedish Bowie" ,because it would be still Bowie, knife with the typical American style blade. I d say, Tanto is a Tanto (no such a thing as "American" Tanto) and Bowie is a Bowie (no such a thing as Swedish Bowie) - speaking of terms.In my opinion.

Not only are you wrong, you are spectacularly missing the 'point' ...so to speak.

The japanese point, the history there of versus the 'American tanto' is pretty well described else where on the forum and part of the history are touched upon on in this thread - maybe read it first.

 

[wensynch]

Tale of Two Tantos

Stacking them up! When tested against a double-edged dagger and…
by Tactical-Life.com


Stacking them up! When tested against a double-edged dagger and a traditional Japanese aikuchi, the Americanized tanto had the shallowest penetration. Its real advantage is the strength of its point, not its penetration, as many believe.

Attending tactical trade shows is a fun and educational way to interface with the end users of tactical knives. It’s also a great way to get a feel for the preferences and beliefs of those end users, both right and wrong. One request that I hear a lot is for tanto-style knives because, the users claim, they “are stronger and penetrate better than other designs.” To ensure that I’m on the same page with them, I usually ask these customers to sketch an outline of what they consider a tanto to be. Invariably, they identify what has become widely known as an “Americanized tanto” with a sword-style point, rather than the classic Japanese-style blade. Enter the myth of the tanto.

Tanto Roots
The popularity of the tanto in the U.S. can be traced back to two basic sources: the late custom knifemaker Bob Lum and Cold Steel founder Lynn Thompson. Lum, a supremely talented custom maker, was the first to marry the distinctive kissaki (the faceted tip of a Samurai sword) with smaller Japanese-style blades to create a distinctive hybrid. Although not true tantos by Japanese standards, they were very striking blades and planted the seeds of the tanto craze. Lynn Thompson watered (some might say fertilized) those seeds with his original Cold Steel tanto, which featured an even more pronounced katana-style point. Designed from the ground up as a production knife that would meet the demanding standards of ABS (American Bladesmith Society) testing, Thompson’s tanto needed a stout point to survive the ABS test that required the tip to be pounded into a piece of seasoned maple and twisted out sideways without breaking. A sword point did this very well, truly launching the tanto era and establishing Cold Steel as a major player in the knife industry.

For the record, traditional Japanese tanto are knives with a tsuba (disk-shaped crossguard) that typically measure about 12 inches long. Their kissaki are usually more rounded and taper more gradually than sword points. There are also other closely related patterns like aikuchi and hamidashi that differ from tantos in very specific ways.

Japanese vs. American
The true benefit of the Americanized tanto design is the strength of its “armor-piercing” point. When thrust into a protective layer, its strength allows it to penetrate and its shape allows it to achieve the full cross-sectional dimension of the blade very quickly, allowing the rest of the blade to slide in easily behind it. That’s why it performs so well on car hoods and other extreme penetration demonstrations. However, when thrust into a homogenous material (one with a uniform consistency), the American tanto does not penetrate as well as other blade designs because its point profile generates more drag.

.

Here it is, for your convenience.

 

[marcinek]

Term of "American tanto" blade appear to me very absurd, ...

Nope. That's a gross misunderstanding of Japanese tantos (which are clearly defined) AND Bowies (which are not).

So both your premise and analogy are incorrect.

 

[Thomas Linton]

But reasoning by false analogy is the genius of politics.

 

[Sosa]

Love or hate tantos and Lynne they aren't going anywhere. Might as well learn to live with it.

 

[singularity35]

So pizza is still Italian even with pineapple slices?

 

[marcinek]

But reasoning by false analogy is the genius of politics.

No politics!

 

[Lycosa]

No... That would be Hawaiian/Italian pizza.

 

[The Whip]

Over the years, I too have read (primarily on this forum) that Lynn Thompson claimed credit for the Americanized tanto when that credit actually belonged to Bob Lum. The problem with that theory has always been that no tanto made by Cold Steel remotely resembled any of Lum's knives. Well, no Cold Steel tanto, that is, except for two. Thanks to the archiving efforts of jlauffer, we have this Cold Steel ad created in 1981.

You will note that the two tantos depicted actually do resemble Lum tantos, including what look to be hamaguri-ground points. So it appears that Cold Steel made knives that reflected Bob Lum's design.

Except it's not quite that simple. In forty years of collecting knives, reading everything about knives I can get my hands on (magazines, books, catalogs, ads), attending knife shows, browsing knife shops, visiting knife museums, perusing multiple knife forums--in all that time, I've only seen those Cold Steel tantos once: In that ad! I have never seen one physical example (or even a photograph) of either of those two knives. Until that ad was posted, I never knew that Cold Steel made such knives. I've also never spoken to any Cold Steel collectors who have ever seen one.

For inclusion in his Knives '82 book, Ken Warner in 1981 wrote this of Bob Lum's tanto (which Warner referred to as "armor-piercing," by the way): "Bob Lum's oriental fighting knife is about as clean a design as you can find anywhere. So far, his designs are quite obviously his own; no one is copying them yet."

The following year in 1982 (for print in Knives '83), Warner devoted a three-page spread to "The Japanese Line," which included Americanized tantos from numerous custom makers (including Lum, Howard Viele, Phill Hartsfield, and others) and which also debuted Cold Steel's Tanto. That Cold Steel Tanto [Warner described the knife as "just announced from Naked Steel" (sic)] looked like this.

Obviously Cold Steel's iconic Tanto--which looks absolutely nothing like any Bob Lum knife, including the point--was already in production by 1982. So from the company's inception in 1980 until the release of the Tanto in 1982, did Cold Steel sell knives that were derivatives of Bob Lum's tantos? Based on that 1981 ad, I suppose it's possible. But I've never seen evidence that those Cold Steel tantos depicted in the ad were ever actually produced.

I think it's safe to say that Bob Lum never lost a single customer to Cold Steel. I think it's also safe to say that Cold Steel's Tanto defines the concept of the Americanized tanto.

-Steve

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

Bob and I were good friends up to the end and his family still lives in the same area I do. One funny point most seem to miss in this discussion was Bob was of Astoria Oregon/Chinese background not Japanese. He told me he just wanted to make a custom with an unique "Asian" flavor when he started. That sword style point was never common on real Japanese tantos. He also said Lynn bought one of his customs at a California show and was soon producing his commercial tanto.