hmm, this could get intersesting.

[Myal]

The chores in a survival situation , or hiking are realy what you make them I am a bit of a minimalist , Ill make a shelter if its raining or snowing , Ill make a windbreak if its blowing a gale , but if I can find it allready made or use a natural version I will .

THe chores basicly depend on the tools at hand , if there is only a knife , Ill make a humpy , if there is a saw or hatchet , Ill make a hut . If there is a knife , hatchet or saw , I can improvise a lot of stuff .

Digging tho , with a knife blade .... owwww , whats wrong with lopping a digging stick and using that ?

I like a smaller knife for most things , I actualy learned to skin and prepare an animal using a stone knife , I realy like using any kind of handled knife after that .

I made my own larger bladed knife , with a saw on it , I wanted a heap of things I coldnt get in a bought knife at my budget , like a rockwell hardness of 60+ and a flexible blade , a convex grind , a handle that fits my big hand , and a useable saw on back of the knife , far enough forward it didnt interfere with normal use , and a saw that could realy be used as a saw , not just funky jagged edge for looks .

I found that the big hss saw blades with some judicious effort with an angle grinder and some wood from my firewood pile made a useable but ugly knife that meets this for me

so I guess my big knife that chops also saws , dam well actualy .

My hatchet is great , I use it for some splitting and some bashing of pegs and stakes it makes a great plane for shaving down sticks to make fishing spears or stuff .. but nothing besides hammering ( a rock can do that ) that the knife wont do .

My folding saw is great , I use it for , wow , sawing !! its faster than the saw on my knife , because I suspect , the longer length of the actual saw edge , as well as the bigger teeth and agressive set on them , its cut the poles for a few shelters , and cut wood to length when we have been waiting out the downpours in the wet , so we have stuff to carve and waste the time with

These are the tools Im talking about :

I keep the saw looking pretty , I like it a lot , but the old knife , it gets more work than both the saw and the hatchet .

I reckon that as people get more used to their own terrain where they do their hiking and hardcore minimalist camping , hunting and pleasure seeking , they figure out their best tools for their way of doing things , and no two persons are going to have the same method or ideas or ideals for that .
Im happy to have a full belly and a warm fire , but the wife is happy when we have a hut , a screened off latrine , a fireplace etc ...

everyone has their own idea of what is necessary for survival ... or hiking ..

 

[hikeeba]

I guess what I'm looking for is that one good argument that I can use to justify purchasing that bigger knife. Still haven't heard it. But I'll keep looking.

My opinion, you'll never know whether you like a larger knife unless you try one out for a couple days in the woods.

Bingo. Trial and error. I have purchased some knives and tools just to try them out. Some have worked well for me, others have not. I wouldn't have known unless I tried.

I don't think there is a 'perfect combo' or 'perfect trio' out there that will work for everyone. Well, maybe that's the wrong choice of words, so let me rephrase that. I don't think there is a 'perfect combo' or 'perfect trio' out there that will satisfiy each individual's personal preferences; although most of us here could make the combo or trio work.

Most of the edged tools that we use in this forum are either multi-funtion tools, or are single-edged tools that can be used in a variety of ways to accomplish a range of tasks. How those tools are applied are up to the individual and their application of their own skills. Also, the tools are somewhat dependent on what sort of gear the user carries, where he or she is going, etc, etc...

I wanted to have a contructive Debate over how much more efficent a 7" knife, folding saw and a sak, could be over an axe and small knfie. What benifits are there, when a knife, saw and sak are used, rather than an axe and a knife.

...Yeah, maybe to clarify more. Lets say your going on a trip, across a lake, then a 5 km hike into a favorite camping spot or something.

Personal preference. Me? Ideally I'd carry a 21" Sven saw, a 14" Fiskars hatchet, Leatherman Wave, and about a 4"-5" fixed blade. I have found a larger take-down saw to be the most efficient for harvesting wood. The hatchet is efficient enough for limbing and handles splitting duties, and the fixed blade takes care of carving, camp chores and everything else. The multitool is my backup.

I have used the 7" Becker TacTool in place of a hatchet many times. It is no where near as efficient as a chopper when compared to the hatchet, but I can accomplish the same things.

 

[troutfisher13111]

I am with the personal preference crowd. Everyone has a different way of doing things. I am a hatchet, fixed blade knife guy myself. But sometimes a small saw is more practical to carry, so I go with that.

 

[nemoaz]

I tried a few 7” knives (a BK7, Ka-Bar and a Bushman) against the smallest SAK saw I have (Vic. Lumberjack) and I found that the little SAK saw was a much safer, more efficient and generally a faster “chopper” than any of the 7” blades.

Ditto. No use for a large blade IMNSHO. Or at least no use that a hatchet or axe wouldn't do better.

 

[Shotgun]

I prefer a small fixed blade because it's sturdier than a pocket knife (which I also carry) but it's also more efficient for actual "knife" tasks than a big knife. Lighter with a better balance and is easier to manipulate.

I prefer a hatchet but the reason for that is it's the most efficient at cutting large peices of wood. Something a saw and a big knife, even 10inchers, have a harder time with. Am I going to cut up large logs in a survival situation? Probably not but than again why limit myself?

 

[frank k]

well, other than shelter, fire prep, is eaiser. i mean, True mundain task, a multitool and a 5" blade is fine. But what is mundain?
Walking down your favorite trail, or trkking through the brush.

Thats what im talking about, for sure if im on a trail, thats allready made, than all I'll have is a multitool and a 4"knife.


So, to set it up again, Were on a trip acrost the lake, the to take a trip in the woods with no trails, your not so much blazing a trail, but its the woods. You get to where you want to setup camp, what would you find the Best, "middle" of the road setup?.

If you’re talking brush heavy enough that you have to hack your way though it (and detouring around it is not an option), a 7” knife is not going to be much help – a 7” blade is too short to make a good machete…..you are going to have a lot of hard work and very slow progress. A machete is the preferred tool for most trail clearing, but if you don’t have one, a SAK saw could harvest a good beating stick which would be more efficient on most types of vegetation than a 7” knife.


Personally, I don’t find 7” knives to be all that practical for the outdoors - they’re too short for chopping and machete work, but long enough to make them awkward for detail work.



I think that a 12” machete would be my pick for a “middle of the road” tool for light camp site and trail clearing and as a “medicine” knife around the camp for heavy or dirty work. A 4” knife would be my choice for a go to camp knife for food prep, light utility, wood carving, cleaning fish and game etc.






- Frank

 

[Fonly]

No, not so much heavy brush, but of the beatin trail. But it wasn't so much about clearing the brush. I have to agree, If I was doing that I would want a machete. This is more of getting firewood, mabye a little work on sapplings for shelter.

What I was trying to get my head around was, on a trip like this, can a set-up with a 7" knife (spliting camp fire wood, colleting things needed for shelter) and a folding saw weighing less then an axe, be as efficent as one, but weigh less.

 

[Myal]

It depends on you and how you work with your tools .

If you are carrying gear you are not used to using it wont be as efficient for *you* tho in theory it may be the most efficient set up .

also it depends a lot on what is available to hand where you want to put your shelter and make your fire .

 

[upnorth]

Wolves and bears around here. But mainly it's a black bear situation. I want a damn BIG knife. Besides I just like to hack the hell out of trees for firewood. Ya, I just like to chop. Dunno why, but I do. Sak (with saw blade) and tomahawk in pack. BIG belt knife down my leg. With all due respect, I could care less what anyone thought about my set up, it suits me just fine and I'm happy as a pig in crap out there. My Becker sheath now has a waterproof match safe with fatwood and vaselined cotton balls in it. Beside that I have a moisture sealed mag bar and snapped off chunk of hack saw blade. These items got a single wrap of duct tape then a black out wrapping of electrical tape. Neat, clean, waterproof, ALWAYS there with me as a redundant back-up fire kit. If I lost all my gear, I still have fire starting capability with my belt knife and that knife stays on my hip.

 

[Fonly]

Wolves and bears around here. But mainly it's a black bear situation. I want a damn BIG knife. Besides I just like to hack the hell out of trees for firewood. Ya, I just like to chop. Dunno why, but I do. Sak (with saw blade) and tomahawk in pack. BIG belt knife down my leg. With all due respect, I could care less what anyone thought about my set up, it suits me just fine and I'm happy as a pig in crap out there. My Becker sheath now has a waterproof match safe with fatwood and vaselined cotton balls in it. Beside that I have a moisture sealed mag bar and snapped off chunk of hack saw blade. These items got a single wrap of duct tape then a black out wrapping of electrical tape. Neat, clean, waterproof, ALWAYS there with me as a redundant back-up fire kit. If I lost all my gear, I still have fire starting capability with my belt knife and that knife stays on my hip.

Haha, couldn't have said it better


I'm not trying to stir things up again, just loking over the items to find which is most efficent, from a weight to ability ratio. I like my axe, and carry it alot, but its fairly heavy, then like the bk7 and folding saw, almost as efficent, but much lighter you know.
Also, from a safer point of view, sawing then batoning would be just that, but even having enough skill with an axe their can allways be that one time.

 

[sherlockbonez]

I only carry a 7 incher when I'm out by myself for a short 1-3 night stay. It does a sufficient job of gathering wood and cleaning fish, which is usually the reason I"m out. If I'm in need for a getting a big fire going (aka with the old lady), then I usually bring a folding saw, an axe and either a mora or my manix.

 

[messer454]

I the wilds of deepest darkest Ohio where I hunt there aren't really any animals to fear besides man and since I am hunting I have a firearm. I have often thought that my Gerber saw and my SAK saw as backup were better for my purposes than a 7" knife but boy I sure like how they look. I always carry a folder or two usually Gerber Gator and Spyderco Endura

The only time I have been backpacking away from Ohio was at The Boy Scout Philmont ranch in New Mexico many years ago. That was the farthest I have ever been from civilization and we made a fire most nights. BSA or at least my troop frowned on fixed blade knives as did the Philmont staff, I didn't have a good fixed blade back then anyway. I carried a SAK, folding saw and either a Buck 110 or the lightweight Buck Scoutlight I can't remember exactly. I remember in my youth planning to smuggle in a pistol for bears but was worried about the train ride. Glad I didn't as I was carrying enough weight and I now know more about bears and pistols, HaHa. The Philmont guy that looked over my stuff wanted me to only take one knife but I took both.

Sorry for rambling, All of this is to say that I never felt like I needed a fixed blade and I stopped carrying one gun hunting years ago. I also like how the folder (a Gerber Gator Drop Point while hunting, most unsung folder out there IMO) can be folded and put in a zip lock bag to be cleaned at home leaving the sheath free from fat and blood, etc. Most 7" plus knives seem to be too thick for what I would use them for.

Good Post.

 

[North61]

It's all good.

But i'll make an argument for the hell of it.

To me when you need a 7 inch knife you need to chop and when you need to chop...it's time for an axe. When do you need to chop? You need to chop when traditional camping or in survival. You need to turn the resources of the woods into shelter and tools for comfortable living.

Camping in the traditional style you need to have poles for shelter and bed making and wood for a fire. Do much real chopping with a knife and you will begin to wish for an axe. Of course an axe needs some experience and training to use properly. It also needs to be sharpened to shave with and a good man with an axe can do a lot of work.

In the winter in a traditional camp you need a lot of fire wood. With a lean too and no sleeping bag you might need a huge amount of wood to stay warm. Big wood. Hug sized wood. You don't want to tackle that with a knife and a mini saw.

Point is with an axe and only an axe an experienced man can survive any weather in the forest. A saw will help but only if it can handle big wood. A small saw is for crafting not survival. With an axe and a proper saw a knife becomes an auxillary device for fine work and food prep. Don't need a 7 incher for that.

For modern camping with a stove, tent and sleeping bag you don't need more than a SAK. You won't need to chop. If your modern camping turns into a survival episode you are still better off with a light axe than a 7" sharpened crowbar. Won't weigh much more and lots more usable.

For traditional camping or survival make my tool a 3/4 size axe. If I can have a saw make it 30" minimum I can carry a 36" swede saw blade in my waist band and make a frame in the woods, and my knife will be a Mora or upscaled bushcrafter. Give me a week and I'll be living in a cabin sleeping in a bed where the lad with the 7" knife is living under a rock somewhere..or worse.

How's that?

 

[sherlockbonez]

I used to carry a full size bow saw for winter camping. I haven't done it for a while now, and seem to have brainwashed myself into thinking that I can get by with a folding saw.

I agree with North61 that lean to in the winter requires a lot of wood to keep warm.

 

[Fonly]

It's all good.

But i'll make an argument for the hell of it.

To me when you need a 7 inch knife you need to chop and when you need to chop...it's time for an axe. When do you need to chop? You need to chop when traditional camping or in survival. You need to turn the resources of the woods into shelter and tools for comfortable living.

Camping in the traditional style you need to have poles for shelter and bed making and wood for a fire. Do much real chopping with a knife and you will begin to wish for an axe. Of course an axe needs some experience and training to use properly. It also needs to be sharpened to shave with and a good man with an axe can do a lot of work.

In the winter in a traditional camp you need a lot of fire wood. With a lean too and no sleeping bag you might need a huge amount of wood to stay warm. Big wood. Hug sized wood. You don't want to tackle that with a knife and a mini saw.

Point is with an axe and only an axe an experienced man can survive any weather in the forest. A saw will help but only if it can handle big wood. A small saw is for crafting not survival. With an axe and a proper saw a knife becomes an auxillary device for fine work and food prep. Don't need a 7 incher for that.

For modern camping with a stove, tent and sleeping bag you don't need more than a SAK. You won't need to chop. If your modern camping turns into a survival episode you are still better off with a light axe than a 7" sharpened crowbar. Won't weigh much more and lots more usable.

For traditional camping or survival make my tool a 3/4 size axe. If I can have a saw make it 30" minimum I can carry a 36" swede saw blade in my waist band and make a frame in the woods, and my knife will be a Mora or upscaled bushcrafter. Give me a week and I'll be living in a cabin sleeping in a bed where the lad with the 7" knife is living under a rock somewhere..or worse.

How's that?

Pretty good, but I got something

I agree that with alot of chopping, I want an axe aswell, but what about the small things?
Thats why I dont think of doing alot of chopping with a knife, but rather sawing it. Safer and less tiring, or am I mistaken in this?
I know It can get kinda heavy swinging an axe for small saplings, and things of smaller size, so what not a saw and the knife. The knife can be used for spliting the wood, and getting polls around 2" right?
Also, The blade on a saw that I would use, has a Aprox~~ 7" blade, so its not a small saw, I know I have never cut anything more than 7" thick, and unless building a cabin I never will.



So, After all that, Is using an axe and small knife, more efficent then a saw and 7" knife, and small folder?

I think I'll try anwsuring my own question.
Though the saw and 7" knife weigh less, mabye a bit safer, Its still more room you have to acomodate for. The axe just goes in you hand while walking, or on your pack. For me, The axe is going to win out, I've used on all my life, and would be fine with just that, and not even a knife.

So, personal ability is the final anwsure, I can do everything I need with an axe. And like N61 said, the knife and saw are just an auxillary (nice to have).

 

[upnorth]

Haha, couldn't have said it better


I'm not trying to stir things up again, just loking over the items to find which is most efficent, from a weight to ability ratio. I like my axe, and carry it alot, but its fairly heavy, then like the bk7 and folding saw, almost as efficent, but much lighter you know.
Also, from a safer point of view, sawing then batoning would be just that, but even having enough skill with an axe their can allways be that one time.

I never let my ignorance stop me from voicing my opinion. I know that there are more knowledgable individuals here in regard to gear etc. Normark alone has probably forgoten more than I know about bushcraft/outdoor gear etc. I also find that my opinions can change with new insight from other members here. At this time however I feel pretty good about my gear selection, and let's face it, it is very individualistic and suited to personal taste. I know from experience that a smaller knife is far more usefull for many applications, processing small game comes immediately to mind. But, I'm just a big knife junky. And....yes, I feel safer with a big knife around bears because I do not own firearms anymore. I'd rather go down fighting than be a passive rump roast.

 

[Fonly]

I'd rather go down fighting than be a passive rump roast.

Aint that the truth.

Im allways having new setups as well, I like trying diffrent things, its fun. And boy isnt it fun to have a BIG knife, and that another thing I like about up here, no one looks at ya funny

 

[Shotgun]

It depends on your knowledge and how much comfort you want to carry. If you know how to knap a knife don't carry any steel. The point is that I carry what I carry because that's what will get me by as comfortably as possible given my skill level when the S hits the fan in a survival situation. Yes, I could probably get by with just a SAK but I would rather hump an extra 20ozs and not struggle so much in the event everything goes south.

Another option you could consider is getting a Gransfors Mini, Saw, and small knife. Would weigh about the same as what you're talking and give you more tools and versatility. So many options. Go with what you like knowing you carry your comfort.

 

[skammer]

A well designed 7-9 inch blade chops well and does it all.

Who the hell wants to hump 6 lbs of tools & steel into the back 40 anyway? Theres your reason..

Its utilitarian and manageable and gets the job done. If you are not humping for miles or building a cabin then take a friggin chainsaw and large axe.

15+ miles off trail, weight, space and utility become major issues. If this is not you then carry 10 tools.

Thats it, thats all, simple.

Skam