Holland/Holand

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Aug 10, 2004
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I have been reading Peter Chatsticks books on hunting in Africa which prompted me to look up HandH firearms on the web. Great site, lots of info and then I checked out the prices. HOLY SHITE! Dont get me wrong, I was expecting expensve but 70,000 pounds or more for a double rifle. Wow, I had know idea. Does anyone have one of there rifles? Can anyone ggive me some sites for dangerous game rifles by some other makers?
Way cool books btw. but if ya read em you;ll want to go to Africa and you will want to buy a 375 handH magto bring with ya.
 
H&H are likely the most expensive firearms in the world. A "big game "a rifle is anything with a really serious calibre. .458 .460 etc. Most of the major rifle makers have something in these calibres.
 
Back when I was a lad, I read all those tales of "white hunter" derring-do in the outdoor magazines. I remember quite a lot about the big double rifles that were favored at the time, including the wealth of hand-fitting and such from the various makers. In most cases, the gentleman/sportsman would be carefully "fitted" using a multi-adjustable "try gun" so as to have a custom weapon.
In a lot of cases, small gunsmiths would produce custom weapons and proprietary ammunition for their well-heeled clients. The double rifle was felt to be the most reliable weapon for facing dangerous game, since it had two separate actions which operated independently. Extractors were favored over auto-ejectors, again from the standpoint of reliability.

A technique I recall reading about was to carry two cartriges between the fingers of the left hand (if you were a righty). After firing both barrels, you'd break the action, and the left hand would sweep back to pull the fired cartridges from the action, then forward to slam the fresh ones home.
Very quick if done properly.
 
Hey Larry, thanks a lot for taking time out of your busy day to contribute so significantly to this thread. It is however difficult to participate in online discussions with members of the blade forums community via the google site.

Sam
 
A member on www.thehighroad.org bought a double rifle from Butch Searcy awhile back and has used it on African hunts as well as stuff here in the states. The pictures he's posted of it are amazing and he gives it a lot of praise. Looks to be one of the best values in a custom double around.
http://www.searcyent.com/ here's their website.

http://www.searcyent.com/buffalo.htm Here's one of several stories written by the guy from thehighroad (he posts as H&H hunter, shares some great stories and pictures as well as lots of good advice)
 
edgetrip said:
Hey Larry, thanks a lot for taking time out of your busy day to contribute so significantly to this thread. It is however difficult to participate in online discussions with members of the blade forums community via the google site.

Sam
Sarcasm noted......
My apologies, I mistakenly interpreted your post as a desire for information; apparently what you were looking for was companionship/a relationship.:confused:
Oh, and by the way....it's Capstick and Holland and Holland!:yawn:

Larry S.:rolleyes:
 
When I first went pigeon shooting as a junior, I was accompanied by the landowner and used his 12 bore, before I owned my own. I remember thinking it appeared a really nice gun (Though I didn't hit much with it if I recall) He told me it was an old Holland and Holland which didn't mean anything to me at the time. I found out later it was worth about £25,000!
 
Thanks for the sites and comments ya'll. Does anyone shoot any of these hi power rounds, how do they compare to 45-70 or 444 Marlin? In one account Capstick mentions his clients nose bleeding from his rifles recoil, does that happen shooting 50bmg?

Sam

ps. Larry I think some of my other posts may have typos/mispellings and even some gramatical errors. Would you take a look and get back to me.

thanks
 
70,000 pounds and more for a gun? It may be worth it, but why not just buy a Land rover and run over the damn lion :)
 
HJK said:
70,000 pounds and more for a gun? It may be worth it, but why not just buy a Land rover and run over the damn lion :)
From the stories I think I would rather be behind the rifle then the rover. Apparently some african game hasa downright evil temper when it comes to vehicles and the bulk and horns to do something about it.

but yeah 70, 000 is a serious gun. I wonder what a glock dangerous game rifle would look like/cost;-)>
 
This one's cheap: only $29,000

hollandroyal12.jpg


And this .470 magnum is dirt cheap at 18,000,000 yen
k_35.jpg
 
Excuse my naivete, but is it really any better than the $50 AK-47? (asbestos underwear on!)
 
Making a double rifle so both barrels shoot to the same point of aim is difficult. The way they sight it in is they shoot a target, then they desolder the barrels and rib, bend one of the barrels a little, then solder it back together and try again. Repeat until it's close enough. That's an expensive process -- maybe not necessarily 70,000 pounds expensive, but another factor is there isn't much demand for double rifles these days. They make so few of them there are no mass production economies -- in fact the guy who sights them in probably hasn't had enough practice at it to get really good....

These days a double rifle is a curiosity for the ultra-wealthy gun buff. People who just want to hunt dangerous game can get bolt-actions now. (In the heyday of the double rifle there weren't any bolt actions that could handle dangerous game cartridges. Skilled labor was cheap then, too....)
 
They're not called "Best English Guns" for no reason.

I recall a story I read about a shotgun used to test proof and factory loads. (This is all from ancient memory, but the basics are correct). The gun was a Boss or Holland & Holland side-by-side 12 bore. One of the factory staff worked out that it had fired over a million rounds. Despite that, if one broke the gun and laid a single human hair across the breech face and tried to close it, it could not be locked up...

maximus otter
 
Cougar Allen said:
Making a double rifle so both barrels shoot to the same point of aim is difficult. The way they sight it in is they shoot a target, then they desolder the barrels and rib, bend one of the barrels a little, then solder it back together and try again. Repeat until it's close enough.
Not necessarily, the good ones like the searcys I put the link up for say that they are monoblock construction. I don't know if its possible to regulate them other than the initial machining because there's no soldering and moving a solid peice of steel :D, I suppose the lack of a margin of error is part of what boosts the costs so much. FWIW, the guy I've talked to online that has one says its very accurate and the barrels are very well regulated. I think he said at 75 yards one shot from each barrel hit the paper less than an inch apart. Chances are if someone wanted to start out close and move back in one yard increments they would find a one hole group in there somewhere.

Personally I'd have to have a whole lot of money and plan on doing some african hunts to talk myself into buying one. But I can understand why they are so expensive (to a point). First off look at the high grade doubles people shoot trap with. Those can cost a ton, some guys will say you can't get a good one for less than $5000, and those are production guns. Take the same thing, beef it up to handle the brutal loads like the Nitro Express, .577 etc. and you've added a lot of cost right there. And they're not production guns being churned out by the hundreds or thousands, they are customs. The guy making them has very low turnout numbers, but has to have all the same licensing, insurance etc. required of any gun manufacturer. There's just no way around it when you start manufacturing guns you've got a huge ovehead. And just like custom knifemakers, the guy is an artist and deserves to be paid for his time.
What we need to do is talk Remington, Winchester, Savage, Marlin or somebody to start making a user grade double in something like 45-70 that all of us poor bastids can afford to smack a deer with :D
 
It's perhaps not so different than asking if a Moran or Walker or Yoshihara is worth thousands too
 
In a different realm, what's the difference in a $600 Remington bolt action and a >$2000 European bolt action? If I am punching paper or even hunting non-threatening game animals, not much. 1/2 inch or 1 inch at a 100 yards? Fancy wood, bluing, etc.?

Now, will a bolt action work on Safari? Sure, many people have used them with great success and lived to tell about it. Now, think about how many times you have fumbled the bolt action reload at the range punching paper. Now add adrenalin on a deer hunt. What happens when your life is flashing before your eyes as one of the BIG Five is 70 yards away at a dead run towards you :eek:

There is a lot of craftsmanship in these rifles. You can argue that you don't need a $100,000 USD worth but, you're easily looking at $10,000 for a good reliable serviceable firearm.

For under a $1,000 I would get a CZ bolt action in 416Rigby. For going on a hunt where my life is in jeopardy if I mess up the first shot, I want some professional guides to back me up along with the double rifle I will have on my shoulder.
 
Sid Post said:
What happens when your life is flashing before your eyes as one of the BIG Five is 70 yards away at a dead run towards you :eek:

For going on a hunt where my life is in jeopardy if I mess up the first shot, I want some professional guides to back me up along with the double rifle I will have on my shoulder.

Add a .50 Barrett & I MAY join you. :eek:
 
I've never fired anything "bigger" than a 45-70, and that with rather light handloads from a Trapdoor Springfield.

But I recall reading (again in one of those "White Hunter" books) about a fellow who had a 2-bore rifle. That's right, 1/2 pound slug; essentially a shoulder-fired small cannon. The dauntless hunter admitted that each time he fired it, it gave him a headache and a nosebleed, as well as spinning him halfway round. But...He said it never failed to bag the game!

Hehe- the guy must have been particularly resistant to flinching.
 
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