Hollow Grinding! Your favorite techniques, jigs, tips...pay your skills forward

What does free handing your blades supposed to mean, Bill ? How do I do pictures for you to post when my shop is down and in boxes? Does it mean you will free hand and I can use them or are you thinking that is the only way it can be done? If you are in doubt of what can be done by a gig then go to the custom knifegallery.com scroll down on the left had side until you find my name. There is variety there to see all done with that same simple jig and no surface grinder or milling machine and no free hand regrinding. Frank
 
It means I don't use jigs to hollow grind.
I have no way of knowing your shop is down. It seemed like you wanted help posting pictures, so I offered to help.
Jigs are fine, useful, helpful things. I said nothing to cast doubt on your methods, I simply said that I hollow grind by hand. Perhaps I should have said it in a different post.
 
There's not much I can add, except--establish your initial grind line. The blade should pass over the belt as if it's glued in that spot. When this happens then you will know your have established your first grind line. You will see a perfectly even grind from tip to ricasso. After that, you very slowly "walk" the blade grind up to the point you want it at. This is a good technique in both hollow or flat grinding. Good luck!

Dave
 
One of the makers on this site has asked for more information and help right now. I will try to help him. He is able to do pictures and postings to the forum. I have set him up with the few pictures that previously where posted by Dan Seaver and Tracy of USAknifemaker supply. I will ask him to help with a WIP but after he has some understanding of my garbled messages. Frank
 
David Stifle said:
There's not much I can add, except--establish your initial grind line. The blade should pass over the belt as if it's glued in that spot. When this happens then you will know your have established your first grind line. You will see a perfectly even grind from tip to ricasso. After that, you very slowly "walk" the blade grind up to the point you want it at. This is a good technique in both hollow or flat grinding. Good luck!

Dave
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Thanks Dave. That's really good advice and I will try it that way.

Do most of you use a rest at the front of the sander while you grind the line? That would be the easiest way to get the line straight wouldn't it?
 
there is a lot of good advice here. mine is to keep on freehand grinding. you will make mistakes, if you don't you are not learning anything. Myself, I frown on jigs that make everything perfect. If you wnat that type of knife you might as well buy a factory production knife. The little suttlies you put in your blade is what makes desireable to users and collectors alike. Leroyk
 
If you are always trying to improve your work and move ahead you may end up with say 80% machine work machine controled and only 2o% hand controled work. The nicities are still there and then some !!! These are not factory knives I'm speaking of, but if the factory knives are that good and many say they are,so what. In today's market the best can no longer can be simply described as hand made. It's not how its made but how well it's made.
There are many well known makers out there that have equipment well past the $75,000 mark. No,only part of the knife is done with fancy machines. The rest is done by them having to hand control what is done. So what ? When the quality is there, how they got there doesn't matter. To think that there is only one way to get there is a huge mistake. Frank
 
Daniel, I just love that "freehand it. it's a great skill to learn." Of course free handing is needed to make knives. Do you use a milling machine or surface grinder or are you looking to get one? You should be free handing it. Frank
 
Frank Niro said:
Daniel, I just love that "freehand it. it's a great skill to learn." Of course free handing is needed to make knives. Do you use a milling machine or surface grinder or are you looking to get one? You should be free handing it. Frank
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I apologize if that seemed rude, I only meant it in an encouraging way.

I am in no way against anyone's way of knifemaking, I just think it is cool that we are all interested in knives.
 
Well, said Daniel and there is what I too think it's all about !!! Do it any way that will let you get there !!!
 
There sure an interest in this thread. Could be because some want to see it they can give it a try, some to see if it's all crap, and many just to learn more about making and adding to their knowledge. This is definitely not an end all answer for all grinding but it certainly will give a huge boost on the blade making.
Okay, lets try to put up with Frank's inabilities to picture and post as well as not having a work shop at this time. You can ask me all the questions you want here or through niro@telus.net
Go to KnifeDogs.com
Click on forums and then on the "General" topicsarea.
Enter jigs in the search box in the uper right hand corner.
Start reading right away OR go to the third page and a thread by BossDog Tracy
Now go to page 6 where Dan Seaver was good enough to post some stuff for me.
Continue to read but don't get tangled in the wire comments I made.
Ask whatever questions you want. Anything coming to my email address will be confidential.

You need to have a tilting table and two blocks about 3 1/3" x 3/4" X 8" preferrable of some type of micarta but otherwise hard wood. The two blocks make upthe "fixture" to hold the blade. You MUST have these blocks SQUARED to the sides and FLAT. Drill ALIGNING holes in the four corners of the blocks by clamping them together. I said this is a terrible simple way to grind. the fixture is ALWAYS FLAT on the table in use. The blade is placed in the fixture with the usual scribed lines on it for the edge thickness and left with the choil and blade sticking out. This is to be edge up. The grinding is done edge up. If you are working a folder blade, simply place a piece of material of the same thickness at the end of the jig. See, you can even start left handed. Place the fixture with the blade against the belt not moving yet,-- but soon. Try to figure an angle for your grind and then tighten down the pivot bolt for the table. Now start your machine with a fresh belt and draw the blade from the ricasso (hand) to the tip with a smooth even pull with a little pressure on the blade. Check it out. Is to going to grind too low or to high. If you can't tell do some more on the same side. Adjust your table angle as necessary. Perhaps the grind is going too high at the tip but is even along the edge? Take and give the blade a tap on the cutting side near the tip. Don't loosen it off. Once youu figure you are close on thesre the only grind line you have to follow and get to is the scribed line of the cutting edge. ALWAYS the fixture with the blade in it is FLAT on the table sand never tilted, but can be drawn in a bit of an arc to get the edge at the front even with the rest. Do all of one side with that sharp course grit,; then turn the fixture 180 degrees and do the other side. No adjustments should be necessary if you had some reasonably parallel sides on your blade cut out that I hope was mild steel for the first one. Trying to do a huge bush wacker or bowie first time isn't going to help either. Now one grit at a ytime one side at a time. How can this work? It's too simple. My best to all who try and give me an email or reply here. And there isn't even something I can try to sell you. Frank
 
Hey guys, great thread! I free hand shallow, hollow grind on a 24" self made wheel. I too found there is a learning curve. However it is not insurmountable. That being wrote, the following is my method, as always YMMV. Assuming you have your shop safty gear on and your blade shaped object profiled... let's begin. (a quick word about your machine, your Surface Feet Per Minute (SFPM) should be at a minimum of 2000 sfpm. or you will be there ALL day. Also use an appropriately course grit (36-80 IMHO)for the "hawging" out stage.)

1) To begin with, I'll mark the center lines for the edge, and depending on the steel, I like to leave at least .030" - .050 thick preheat treat edge. on most of my preferred steels. I'll also mark where the plunge cuts are to be as well. I found that running my grinding wheel in reverse direction, (sparks thrown up in stead of down) allows me to carefully watch the centerline and to easily adjust on the fly if I'm grinding uneven (thick spots) I encourage you to try this method, as it really helped my grinding ability. Most electric motors are easily reversible as well.

2) Being Right handed I prefer to start grinding on the presentation side (Left) first. I hold the K.S.O. in such a way that the edge is at a right angle to the centerline of the wheel. I'll gently press the blade into the wheel and begin my first plunge (Remember let the wheel do the work no need to press to hard, 5-15 pounds of pressure should do just dandy in most circumstances.) Pass the KSO across the face of the belt a few times to establish the beginning bevel

3) As the wheel gets closer to the center line, I twist my wrist and bring the spine closer to the wheel, all the while constantly moving it across the wheel face, to ensure even grinding.
Keep this up until the desired bevel height is reached. Once it is check to make sure your grind is even with your center line on the edge. adjust as necessary and flip the knife over and repeat. making sure to pay special attention that the plunges line up. and are the same depth.

4) Once both sides are "hawg'd" I'll change belt grits. I normally use only 3 grits of belts. 60/80 - 220/320 - 600. then for a nice final polish i'll use a worn 600 with #2 gray buffing compound to really put a polish on the bevels. also something I think is worth mentioning. So long as your using a wheel over 10"-12" you can flat grind with it. By turning the blade vertically and moving it constantly up and down the blade bevel. Paying attention to not over eat the center line and keeping the plunges even. On smaller diameter wheels this will eat divots into your blade. but a sufficiently large diameter wheel is much shallower of a grind. So you can easily avoid giving your blade a corduroy look.

Jason S. Carter
Mud Creek Forge
 
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This thread is posted on BB and shows the wide variety of machines that are used in making knives:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums...owie-Our-winner-is-Zackerty-from-New-Zealand..

I had conversations with a number of these people, wanting to know their approach to knife making. Each had his own approach, his own philosophy as a maker. No two were exactly alike.
Much of this variance comes about because of; machines that are available to the person, the persons innate skills and the amount of time the person has to dedicate to acquiring the skills.

Sitting at my workbench thinking about what I had learned from talking with these knife makers; I noticed a common thread: if I was talking with a seasoned maker, they would suggest practice; practice until you are accomplished at the desired skill. Jigs are not needed.
If I was speaking with someone who was in the process of learning a skill, they were more open to different approaches to acquiring a given skill.
Its very similar to speaking with the accomplished brain surgeon who, when asked remarks: "There's nothing to it, once you know how, its easy" Its the same with most any skill.
I have seen makers who have every knifemaking machine known to man; but in my humble opinion make some butt ugly knives. On the other hand there are makers who turn out glorious creations with the simplest of tools; with or without jigs.

So to berate anyone for their approach to making knives misses the point. Its not the tools they use to make their knives, its the knives themselves that should be considered.

I have never hollow ground a blade in my life so leave those suggestions to the ones who have.

Good thread, Fred
 
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Well, Fred you have it right. Whatever is a way to get you there and however the tools or process that is used is the right way driven by the wanting to do it be it one or many. Frank
 
I grind off a tool rest when I need/want to, or freehand if it's needed for a knife. I don't think one is better than the other. Grinding on the tool rest does offer more control.

Many times that I hear arguments from makers about how important it is to only free hand grind... and then they show me their shitty free hand ground knives. If somebody is going to beat their chest about how you have to grind (no matter their choice) they best have some really great, smooth, clean, symmetrical blades to show for it. ;) :) Of course there are many makers that grind a nearly perfect blade that way... but grinding the bevels is just one part of the whole process.
 
I saw David Sharp's freehand hollow grinds at the Cal knives show today in Brea and they were stunning, as were the entire knives. His was my favorite table.

EA
 
I always get nervous when I read and see knives of Nick's caliber; I agree 100% with his post. As stated before I tried a jig very similar to Frank's; we spoke via email about it. Unfortunately it did not work for what I want to accomplish. I encourage all to do there best and produce a product that they are proud of whether it is free hand or jig ground.

And then I looked down and saw my name; Holy Wow! Thanks Erik.

David Sharp
 
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