Hong Kong / Chinese buyers using freight forwarders

Will York

Will York

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I’ve had some interesting experiences lately with buyers in Hong Kong “posing” as US buyers. By “posing”, I mean that they indicate either in emails or, actually in one case, in the “Location” field in their posts, that they are in the US.

My first such experience was with a buyer who listed his location as “Portland, OR”. He negotiated aggressively to get me to reduce my price, and I finally brought it down from $220 to $215. When we switched from PM to emails, I noticed oriental characters appearing in his email besides the English words. He said he’d take the knife, but when he PayPaled funds, the deduction for PayPal’s fee was 4%, not 3%. Since it was only a difference of about $2 on the $215, I let it go, but when I went to print a USPS printing label through PayPal, there was no confirmed address. I emailed him about it, and he replied with an address in Portland with two zip codes. I asked why the two zip codes, and he said because it was a freight forwarding company in Portland, OR that forwarded mail to Hong Kong, and it has become so big that it has its own zip code. However, only USPS seems to know about its zip code designation, so if I shipped by UPS or other I should use the other, more general zip code.

I informed him at that point that I would not be responsible for shipping or insurance under those circumstances, and that I would either refund his money or he could take his chances with shipping, with no liability to me. He opted to take the deal, no liability to me. I shipped, and never heard from him again—no “got the knife”, no feedback, no nothing. Doesn’t answer my emails.

I had a similar situation arise with a buyer "on the east coast (US)". That fellow was a little more forthcoming, also with Chinese characters in his email, but did say up front that I would be shipping to a US address and that the knife would be forwarded to him abroad. His PayPal fee was the standard 3%--I don’t know why the difference between his PP% and the other buyer’s. I made the same deal, agreeing to ship with no liability to me, and again, never heard from him after I shipped the knife.

Third time up (all 3 over the course of the last six weeks), I received a PM from someone asking if I had Busse knives for sale--I’d recently sold a few. I said I might, and he asked for photos. I sent one I had on file, and when he replied with his email asking for more photos, I saw the Chinese characters in the heading. By this time, I had become accustomed to saying up front in all communication that I was only interested in selling to buyers within the US, and I specifically said that in the first sentence in my very first reply to him. So when I saw the Chinese characters this time, I asked where he lived. He replied, “SHIPPING ADDRESS PORTLAND”. I replied asking if it was a freight forwarding company that sent bulk cargo to China, and he replied, “YES” (his caps, not mine). I then asked where he lived, and he said “Hong Kong”.
Following is my intended reply:

I prefer to deal with people who are honest with me about their identities. I have had to ask you many questions just to establish that you are not in the US. You didn't lie to me, but you have been evasive about your circumstances. Those circumstances are important, because your PayPal rate and my net receipt from any sale may be affected. The fact that you use an international freight forwarder also impacts my ability to track the order and collect insurance if the item is lost--I have no way to do that.

I usually sell on Bladeforums rather than on eBay or other websites because it is a community of people with stronger connections than just money. That connection between trading partners makes transactions with one another a function of trust and respect, and facilitates fair dealing. Not all people who deal on BFC are honest or fair, but I find most are, and I value that relationship.

I don't feel you have demonstrated that level of respect for my need to know who you are and what your trading circumstances are. Consequently, I would prefer not to deal with you.

Sorry,
Will

I haven’t sent the above reply, yet. After composing it, I realized it is as much a venting exercise as anything, and it occurred to me it might be good to post it here and get opinions. I also thought it might be helpful for others to know this is happening more and more frequently, so they can be better prepared in advance than I was. I searched GB&U for similar situations, but haven't been able to find any.

Thanks for any thoughts,
Will
 
I do not ship internationally for my home business but get many Russian customers who use mail forwading services and order via my storefront and use Paypal. They just enter the mailing address in the US. I probably get one each week. I make it clear that I am not resopbsible for loss or damage because every package gets opened and repacked in the US before it is forwarded. So far no issues.

Sent from my LGMS428 using Tapatalk
 
I have had a few experiences with freight forwarding of model trains that I sell on the bay as well as their global shipping program which is essentially a freight forwarding operation with a bit more oversight and control. That being said, I am not a fan due to the added levels of hands on the items and lack of any real knowledge of the freight forwarder people. I definitely prefer direct person to person sales, but as a few of the oversea buyers have noted, the items they want are so much more expensive in their own countries or not available at all. As you and others indicated, I too preface any deal with not being responsible for lost or damaged items once it exits the USA. Haven't had any problems as of yet, but i know it's only a matter of time. I have shipped knives through the forum here overseas, but each time it was direct member to member, no third parties other than the USPS or FedEx.
 
Proxy buying needs to be done with full knowledge of the seller so he/she can decide to participate in such a thing or not. Anything else is dishonest. Like with all transactions, communication is key.
 
That too would make me uncomfortable Will. And as you know I use proxy locations in the US (all disclosed clearly Cray) for many of my purchases. But the sellers responsibility ENDS once it is at that address (the one in the US to whom I have asked for it to be shipped). I have also received a number of PMs from people wanting me to sell various blades I have pictured. Some are quite genuine ("hey I am really looking for one of these do you have a spare or would you know where I could find one") and some are clearly less so ("I will buy all you have"). The Paypal % difference will relate to where the source funds are based. If they are a US based account (that is the person has an account with a US bank and their paypal is Paypal US as opposed to Paypal Australia for example) then 3% but if it is a non-US based account say me to you for example, then 4%. It only went up quite recently.
 
I had the same situation as the first experience you described, only once I found out it was a freight forwarding company I insisted that payment be made as "Friends & Family". That worked out fine...
 
As an international buyer I think that it is very bad form not to be absolutely clear about who and where you are.

I too have a U.S. proxy that I send all my purchases to and the sellers responsibility ends when the package reaches him. After that it is my problem.

There have been entirely to many threads with people not being clear about where they are buying from and then when the package gets seized by customs they open a Paypal dispute and dump the responsibility on the seller.......not cool.
 
Good points all around, and from Andy and Steven as international buyers trading here in the US a good reminder that forwarders can serve a valuable and legitimate service if handled correctly. I'm going to modify my responses in the future to be more accepting of international buyers, as long as they're up front and have enough experience to conduct the transaction in a professional way. :thumbup:

At the same time, craytab's statement resonates with me in the same way that all good-faith business practices should--

craytab said:
Proxy buying needs to be done with full knowledge of the seller so he/she can decide to participate in such a thing or not. Anything else is dishonest. Like with all transactions, communication is key.
Click to expand...

Thanks to all for responding so far. :thumbup:
 
I have sold to a couple of folks who used a forwarding service. It worked out fine and I appreciated the fact that folks went to the extra effort of arranging things so that I could sell to a non-U.S. buyer but still ship to a U.S. address. I don't know if it made it any easier for them, but it sure made it a lot simpler for me.
 
Great thread Will...

I especially appreciate your description of BF and your brethren here as:

"a community of people with stronger connections than just money. That connection between trading partners makes transactions with one another a function of trust and respect, and facilitates fair dealing. Not all people who deal on BFC are honest or fair, but I find most are, and I value that relationship."

...that's so freakin well stated, it's a thing of beauty . :thumbup:

Only thing that would have made it better...if you'd worked in a Basic 8 reference! :cool:
 
Good points, popedandy--when buyers are open and up front about dealing through proxies/forwarders, they can make it easy on sellers and expand our markets at the same time--a win-win. It's only when people try to conceal and evade, and as Steven said, abuse the system, that we run into problems.

PTPO, you're too kind...now about that B8...:D
 
craytab said:
Proxy buying needs to be done with full knowledge of the seller so he/she can decide to participate in such a thing or not. Anything else is dishonest. Like with all transactions, communication is key.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

Steven65 said:
As an international buyer I think that it is very bad form not to be absolutely clear about who and where you are.

I too have a U.S. proxy that I send all my purchases to and the sellers responsibility ends when the package reaches him. After that it is my problem.

There have been entirely to many threads with people not being clear about where they are buying from and then when the package gets seized by customs they open a Paypal dispute and dump the responsibility on the seller.......not cool.
Click to expand...

This is exactly as it should be.
 
I think forwarders are a great tool, and actually alleviate much of the responsibility of the seller. Buyers can fill out one customs form for several orders as they see fit. As many knives these days fall under Fish and Wildlife guidelines and are required to be declared and a $94 inspection fee included. If a seller get's caught violating this, it could be a quick insolvency. One note is that I always require customers that are using re-shippers to pay via paypal; they can pay with CC, but must checkout thru paypal instead of the other CC processor. Reason being that once they supply a U.S. shipping address, you are covered via paypal's protections. We have had some foreign customers that use stolen credit cards and make sure the product leaves the re-shipper immediately - leaving the seller eating the loss and charge-back fees.
 
Even with paypal goods we have seen issues. A recent one was where a reshipper delivered a knife the buyer was not happy with. He claimed it was damaged. Well, who damaged it? Was it repackaged? Who packed it incorrectly? How can a seller prove any of this to paypal when the knife is in China now? Can a seller get insurance for a knife that is in a foreign country with no proof of the chain of handling? Guess who got left holding the bag?

Every transaction is a risk. All we can do is mitigate that risk. Like it or not, reshipping and shipping over seas are more of a risk than shipping in the US. In the least the seller should know the risk he/she is getting into. If it is being forwarded, the buyer needs to disclose this. In the above situation the buyer did not disclose it was a forwarding service. The seller needs to know otherwise it is dishonest.
 
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