Horn Handles and Cold Don't Mix?

S

sing

Joined
Jan 31, 1999
Messages
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I love the feel and look of the horn handles. But, I am wondering if horn just doesn't do well in cold weather. I have a couple of horn handle khukuris that I used in my camp during Christmas week vacation that cracked. They were "blemishes" with repaired handles so I thought it may be just the hard impact I subjected them too while chopping hard seasoned, firewood.

The other day I got my Millenium with a horn handle. It was beautiful and perfect. I put it in my car in freezing temps for the day. I then brought it home and put it away. Today, in handling it, I noticed two hairline cracks that haven't fully split yet. They weren't there when I got the khukuri. This leads me to think, leaving horn in the extreme cold and then bringing it into a warm house can cause cracks. I say this because my first AK with the horn handle has been sitting in the house since the summer and it's doing fine.

Any thoughts or experience with this? I think I am sticking to wood handles from now on.

sing

AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 01-21-2000).]
 
Could it be the extreme lack of humidity during the winter months? I've had a couple of blems' handles start to crack also, but they've been inside in a very low humidity environment (winter - furnace running & no humidifier).
I repaiered them both & it doesn't really bother me because they're "users" anyway, but I'm curious to see what the knowledgable folks have to say.
 
Bill says to use epoxy. When you're talking big cracks I know that he's gotta be right. But when you are dealing with incipient, hairline cracks, I like to use regular, NOT gel superglue as a treatment for the hairline cracks, and then to cover the rest of the handle as a prophylactic sealant to get into any heretofore invisible cracks, and then take it off back to the bone with super glue remover, then buff. No further cracks so far. (Now watch me drop one on my big toe and break the toe and the horn at the same time.)
 
Good advice, Rusty.

I think that rapid temperature changes can cause the horn to expand or contract faster than it really is capable of doing and this can cause a problem with cracking. I can't think of a decent solution in our modern society where we might take a knife that's been resting inside at say 75 degress and toss it into the trunk of a car that could be minus 20.

A very dry climate can also cause the horn to crack. I have a customer in Phoenix who tells me even his pistol grips crack when he keeps his guns in the truck of his car during the hot, dry, desert summer days -- maybe 115 degrees and 2% humidity. I guess I'd crack, too.

I guess the only saving grace is a cracked handle seldom fails but it sure doesn't look nice.

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Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ



[This message has been edited by Bill Martino (edited 01-22-2000).]
 
It's true even with the cracked horn handles, the khuks kept right on going. I didn't notice the cracks til I got into the house.

It's just the beauty quotient. The horn is better looking but I think I am going with wood from now on. Plus, I am not very handy if the handle goes totally. Good thing I have a relative, MD2020, who is. He's done work on my shotgun stocks. Now, he is doing my khuk's
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sing

AKTI #A000356
 
:
That's a very large potential problem with all natural materials. I understand that stag can be pretty bad about that also. Perhaps an immediate if possible treatment with the hoof dressing may possibly prevent any further problems?
My daughter with the horses says tat anything with Lanolin as it's first ingredient will work just as well as the regular hoof dressing.

I had the handle on my Salyan crack, because I had it outside on 2 consecutive days in the damp weather working the size down on it to fit my hand.
The wood was very well seasoned and very,very dry. When I brought it into the house and picked it up the next day for more work I found the crack. I repaired it with super glue.
I stll haven't finished it and found another crack in it due to the really wierd weather we have been having. (Daffodils up 4" in the front yard and Creeping Phlox still blooming!!) It has been repaired the same way.
I use the liquid glue like Rusty uses on the horn handles when fixing cracks like this.

I have oiled my other handles really well with boiled Linseed oil and haven't had any problems with them as yet. It looks as if I should put some kind of treatment on any horn ones I may take outside that may get cold for any length then brought back into a hot dry house.

I wonder if Will and Cliff have had any problems way up north? Will had a vey good suggestion with resin stabilized handles if possible.

Does this occur often in Nepal Uncle? I believe you have said the kamis say that the khukuri is supposed to last over 100 years, but the handles won't last,realizeing that the knives are really used in thier own country of origin.

I wrote this the other night and wanted to see some other responses before I posted it. The weather has now turned cold and it's 26* with wind chills at 7*. I am going into hibernation ad taking my khukuri's with me.
smile.gif
(That's a VBEG.)


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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

If you mix milk of magnesia with vodka and orange juice do you get a phillips screwdriver?

Khukuri FAQ


 
I definitely agree with y'all about the warm/cold, wet/dry. We heat with wood (which is why I can justify my Khuks 'Honey, I need them to split and chop the wood...' hehehe). Anyway, My handles, both wood and horn have cracked as well. I have repaired the wood handle on my 20" General Utility Villager with some epoxy that I use to do concrete repair work. I figure that if it can hold concrete, it should work fine on wood... I've not had any more cracks appear since repairing the one. It was caused from use outside in the cold, and then subsequent storage inside of the hot dry house. One night, I accidentally left it in the same room as the stove (bad dog), which was, coincidentally (or not), the same night that the crack developed. No surprises here, drastic temp and humidity changes are not good for anything. Wood and horn don't seem to be exceptions. Praise God for good adhesives for fixing these critters!!!

Rob

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'He's losin' it... (Words spoken about me by a visitor seeing me with my Khuk!)
Lucky for them I'm not...
 
Thanks sing, and Uncle Bill for the faith in me doing some repairs.
smile.gif
Sing and I will hook up on Friday, so I get look at his khuks a little closer.

I took out my (formerly sing's) 20" bhunduni, and the 18"+ Sher AK (yes, I am the owner of the other 3 lb. BEAST) about a month ago and started at this stump. The air temperature was in the low teens. I had the brass endcap loosen up on me, but the Sher held tough. They were stored at 68 degrees F before I took them outside. I haven't tried to any kind of glue repairs yet.

BTW - the Sher AK was far superior chopping the frozen stump. 30 minutes outside and I was beat - my back hurt, and neck were sore for a couple of days later. I should have stretched out a bit 1st.
frown.gif


All of my khukuri handles are horn, so I haven't dealt with any wood cracking problems.

The past week its been cold 5 degrees with about 35-40 mph gusts!
frown.gif
I forget the wind chill factor, but it hurt to breath.....LOL. I love the cold, BUT not THAT cold. The teens seem WARM right now.
smile.gif


Where are Will, and Cliff? They would have the most sever weather for sure!




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Ray 'md2020'
 
Remember the wisdom of the kamis: Blades are meant to last forever but not handles.

Feedback from the field seems to indicate that treating the horn handles with the lanolin based stuff does help considerably in preventing cracks.

Interesting observation: Up at Kamis' ranch it will get well below zero, maybe 6 feet of snow just up the slopes, probably somewhat colder than sing endures but the handles don't crack on the khukuris. Why? They are kept outside in the barn where they are not subjected to violent temperature changes. The khukuris that are in the house where it's warm stay in the house -- no cracks.

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Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ



[This message has been edited by Bill Martino (edited 01-24-2000).]
 
So, Uncle Bill, other than that, the Sherpas, don't give the khukuris any special treatment ?

I would think that if a handle failed, they would have the choice of making a new handle themselves or taking it to a kami to have that done.

Harry
 
Harry, generally speaking I think all the people of Nepal would think that we "baby" our khukuris here. The khukuris there are the ugly village models made to do the job and not made to be beautiful. They get very little care outside of sharpening.

Handles do fail on a regular basis in Nepal and the khukuris are taken back to the local kami for rehandling. When rehandling the kami will also dress up the edge again -- and will do a sort of a khukuri overhaul or tune up if required.

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Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ

 
I can not recall using my horn handle khukuri's in the cold. Extreme cold is a relative term, we have had a few days of -30 C around here. As the weather gets colder, I am much more willing to carry my 20" Ang Khola (really 22").

The wood handle on my 22" Ang Khola cracked the first time it was out, it was about -5 C. This is probably at least a 20 C temperature drop compared to Reno, NV. There were two cracks. A minor hairline crack at the bottom and a severe crack that ran the length of the handle near the top. I fixed the cracks with epoxy. I have been out with that knife at -20 C splitting wood and have not experienced any more cracks with that handle.

I loaned out the reject Ang Khola with a horn handle to a university professor who took it with him to Florida. Except for when he was using it, it sat in the trunk of his car. Apparently, the sharpness scared his wife. Needless to say it was somewhat rusty from the condensation (I gave it to him in a padded plastic case). The handle was cracked from use in as during initial testing and use as my practice khukuri. These cracks were hairline cracks, which I repaired with Super Glue. The handle has not cracked from use or sitting in his car. The lowest temperature it was exposed to is probably –10 C and the highest 30 C. I believe if it was a new khukuri the handle would have cracked.

I am not sure what horn handles to crack at low temperatures. One possible reason given is that expansion due to temperature (in this case contraction with decreasing temperature). Steel, horn, epoxy, and brass all contract at different rates. This would cause uneven stresses on each other, which could result in cracks. The problem with this explanation is that contraction is small due to the small size of handles. Then it might not take much to cause the horn handle to crack.

Another reason given is moisture lost due to humidity. This would make a lot of sense if the khukuri if taken from a hot environment to a cold environment. The handle heats the air around it. This causes the relative humidity around the handle to be very low. Moisture will evaporate from the handle quickly until the handle cools down. Since people are having success with lanolin oils, I think this is the most likely cause of handle cracking in the cold. Following this logic, the handle of my reject Ang Khola did not crack because its temperature is essentially ambient. This seems to be consistent with Uncle Bill's observations as well. Also, most of the stresses in the handle had been relieved in the handle by the initial cracking.

Unfortunately, natural materials will crack with temperature, age, and stress. Resin impregnation should be able to minimize this but then the material can not be considered completely natural. Hopefully, someone has a good explanation for handle cracking.

Will




[This message has been edited by Will Kwan (edited 01-24-2000).]
 
Will, I think your explanation is as good as we are going to get and thanks for posting it. Even my own skin cracks when conditions are right and I'm still alive and feeding it the best I can. When I'm in the same condition as the horn and wood I suspect I'll crack a lot more.

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Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ

 
Just an idea, and it probably doesn't make any sense, but here goes. Is it possible that the tang, which is enclosed tightly by the handle--if it were to expand or contract, would it have more effect on horn, which may not expand/contract as compatibly as wood does with the steel? Maybe this is why? Perhaps lanolin allows the horn to flex more with the changes in temp/ and or the changes in the tang beneath--if in fact that has anything to do with it! just an idea--what do you think?

Rob
 
I honestly can't make an educated guess about this, Rob. I don't know enough about the expansion rates of the various materials involved. We have brass, steel, Himalayan epoxy, horn and wood involved. It's beyond me.

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Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ

 
I've been using my khukuris up here in the Yukon for several months now. Firstly I have to say that the Ang Khola is the only blade I need to carry when out for long periods of time up here - I've yet to need any other knife-like tool for all the normal tasks. (Cabin building is a different matter)

Yeah, those horn handles crack pretty easily below -35C or so, but they hold up 'till around -45C when even the "Himalayan Epoxy" becomes so brittle it smashes to bits with regular use. My AK now sports a Moose antler handle and will last forever, I'm sure. The Brass handled Khuk I bought for a friend is the one we discovered the smashing point of the himalayan epoxy - he'd just cleft the head off one of his chickens (which, of course, doesn't require much force at all) and the impact left the blade in the chopping block and my friend had the handle in hand with bits of the brownish-black epoxy falling out of it. Good thing to find out.

I doubt the kamis were planning on anyone using their khuks in that kind of weather. It's just good to know prior to any emergency. Both khuks have been repaired and have the tangs peened as an extra precaution.

My wife's khuk has a horn handle as well, and as long as she remembers to wipe it with olive oil once a week it doesn't dry out too much and has only aquired one small, hairline fracture.

All in all these are the best tools I've invested in. I would (and do!) trust my life with each of them.

Douglas.

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If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each man's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility.
 
Douglas,

You hit on my unspoken concern, that is whether a khuk handle might fail in a major way out in the woods in the winter. For New Year, my celebration was to trek out into the Maine woods to build a shelter, cut some wood for a fire and spend the night. Given what happened to the horn handle khukuris, I took a wooden handle villager with me instead. It performed admirably in the 10-20F weather. But that villager utility was kept in an unheated shed so I don't if it would have cracked going from extreme cold to the warmth of the cabin afterwards.

I plan a similar trek in February. Don't know what I will take along yet. Some new khuk's to try out.
smile.gif


sing

AKTI #A000356
 
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