Horrible Exchange with Internet Knife Center

J

John Frankl

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Oct 16, 2001
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Hello All,

I have never posted here before, because I do not like to whine and I generally have very pleasant dealings with those in the knife world. A recent exchange with knifecenter.com, however, was very disturbing.

Rather than engage in hearsay, I will simply include our email exchanges below. If I have overreacted, I am also perfectly ready to hear why and rethink my position.

Yours,

John

______________________________________
From: <johnfrankl@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 10:27:25 -0800 (PST)
To: info@knifecenter.com
Cc: John Frankl <johnfrankl@yahoo.com>
Subject: My Order

Order #: K94753
Reference #: 38648

Hello,

I recently received my order--thank you. Unfortunately, there were two major problems.

The first was that I ordered a Wetterlings Hunters Axe, but I was sent a Carpenters Axe (please see attached photos).

The second is that the axe was rather poorly packaged and damaged in shipping. I realize that the postal service can be rather rough on packages, but that does not explain why there was not even a bit of bubble wrap used to make sure no damage occurred. The photos will also show a deformed/defective rivet in the sheath that lead to chipping of the axe's edge.

As I am in Korea, sending this back is also somewhat problematic. Please tell me what you believe a fair solution to these problems is.

Thank you,

John M. Frankl

-----------------------------------------------
Knifecenter <support@knifecenter.com> wrote:

Hello,

I apologize about the inconvenience. I am pretty sure the axe is supposed to look like that. There are slight imperfections out of the factory when the manufacturer delivers it to us. I would be very surprised to see an axe get damaged during transit as those types of products are supposed to take a much more severe beating than any type of damage that would/could be caused during transit.

We apologize about shipping you the incorrect item. The best way would be to have you ship that item back to us via USPS Priority Mail, and we will reimburse the Priority Mail cost to you. Once we receive that item, we will go ahead and ship you the correct item.

Please let us know if you have any questions or concerns. Our mailing address is below (as well as on the invoice).

http://www.knifecenter.com/return.html

-- Regards,
Knifecenter.com
5111 Berwyn Rd STE 110
College Park, MD 20740
(800) 338-6799 TOLL-FREE
(301) 486-0901 TEL
(301) 486-0908 FAX
support@knifecenter.com

---------------------------------------------
*It is worth noting that in the above response my message was largely ignored. A rivet in the leather sheath was badly damaged, exposing the cutting edge of the axe to metal. I sent photos of this. The axe was chipped; it was not "supposed to looke like that." In addition, I clearly stated that I am in Korea; USPS Priority Mail does not even exist as a possibility for me here.
------------------------------------------------
From: <johnfrankl@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:56:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Knifecenter <support@knifecenter.com>
Subject: Re: My Order

Thank you for the reply.

In terms of shipping, would it be possible instead to order another axe (perhaps the Wetterlings with the 15-16" handle) from you and have you cover the shipping?

Thank you,

John

------------------------------------------------------
Knifecenter <support@knifecenter.com> wrote:
Hello,

Sorry, we cannot cover the cost of shipping another axe. The item that we shipped you is actually a more expensive item @ $43.95. The item that you ordered is $30.95. If you are going to keep that item, we will need to charge you the $13.00 difference. You are more than welcome to return that item and we will ship the correct item to you and we will cover shipping costs. Please let us know how you would like to proceed with this.

Regards,

Knifecenter.com
5111 Berwyn Rd STE 110
College Park, MD 20740
(800) 338-6799 TOLL-FREE
(301) 486-0901 TEL
(301) 486-0908 FAX
support@knifecenter.com

--------------------------------------------------
Hello,

That is a very interesting "customer service" policy--I pay for your mistake. I find it more customary--at least with those businesses that desire repeat customers--for some sort of service to be offered by way of apology for the mistake.

Whether the item you incorrectly sent me was 13 or 130 dollars more than the one I ordered, the mistake is still yours, and the inconvenience mine. And if you want to charge me 13 dollars to keep the item you incorrectly sent me, then I will be glad to send it back to you. Of course, I will be billing you $100 per hour for the time it has taken me to send these emails, and for the time it will take me to package the item, bring it to the post office, and send it. Oh, and I'll include charges for gas and tire wear as well.

If the above seems rather ridiculous, it was meant to be. Both of us could have been flexible and wound up pleased with this interaction. That is why I offered to purchase another item, more like the one I originally ordered. I expected you to be pleased with this opportunity to sell another item and have a satisfied customer.

By the way, I can only assume that you are not the owner of this company. I formally request that you forward all our correspondence to the owner and let him/her decide on this matter. Even if you do not, I will be posting our exchanges on BladeForums.com to warn others, so I am assuming your owner will become aware of this in time.

Sincerely,

John M. Frankl
 
Well, they did say that they would cover shipping costs for you to return what you got and ship you the correct one. I completely understand your frustration, and I've been in similar situations, but I've learned that there is really not much more you can ask for than that. I order lots of stuff online, from knives to books to clothes to computers, and I just accept that a small percentage of orders will get messed up and be a hassle for me, but it's more than made up for by the lower prices and increased selection I have access to by ordering online. I hope the situation ends up working out in a way that is satisfactory for you.
 
too bad the attitudes of these internet businesses are so customer unfriendly. fortunately, most of the internet venders i have used have been good (except 2, and they have lost my business). i'm sure there are those who would cry "they took care of me", but the fact is that those 2 crappy sites didn't do right by me. just as knifecenter.com didn't do right by you. when ever i order a knife over the net, i check gbu first, then order. any negative feedback and i pass. i hope things work out for you. time to drink!


as i read your original post again, the dealer is telling you to ship the axe back to them. they in turn will ship you the correct axe and refund you the return shipping. the only thing you're out is time and inconveniece. not a bad outcome. now to drink!
 
You want to keep the more expensive axe they sent you and get a second axe at regular price with free shipping? I don't quite see why they would do that, they would lose money on both items; the difference in selling price of the first and the shipping price of the second.
 
I have placed about 12 orders with knifecenter over the last 3-4 years and have never had a problem. I'm sorry to hear of your dissatisfaction.
 
I don't see what they did wrong, except in sending the wrong axe the first time.

Their first response to you was, send us back the axe and we'll pay that shipping AND send you the axe you want. That's not really discourteous or unresponsive.

Yes, you do need to remind them that USPS Priority isn't available from Korea, but that's a technical detail you can work out.
 
What problem- They offered to replace the axe and cover return shipping. Mistakes happen and they are trying to make it right. They meant for you to ship the axe back using the equivalent of Priority Mail.

Seems from the start you were looking for a little gratuity and want to keep the axe and not return it.

It&#8217;s very common for a Buyer to say an item isn&#8217;t as advertised or damaged in shipping looking for a price break. I tell the Buyer to return the item in the condition I shipped it and I&#8217;ll issue a complete refund. As here you&#8217;re unhappy with the item but hesitant to return it at the Sellers expense- this diminishes your claim of dissatisfaction.

Your second email is ridiculous and not they way to encourage dialog with the Seller. You need that persons help and understanding, your second email basically ends any chance of that.


Mitch
 
We apologize about shipping you the incorrect item. The best way would be to have you ship that item back to us via USPS Priority Mail, and we will reimburse the Priority Mail cost to you. Once we receive that item, we will go ahead and ship you the correct item.
Click to expand...

The problem with this is as I see it from prior exp, is this is all they will reimburse no matter what it actually cost to ship it back. Then there are the extra fees and taxes for the customs people. Should the buyer have to eat those twice just because the seller shipped a damaged and wrong item?
 
I have personally ordered from knifecenter a number of times. I also have friends who have ordered from them with great success. I did have one problem with receiving the wrong item. I ordered a Puma White Hunter and received a Puma White Hunter that was a vietnam commemorative.

I was upset and drove it back to knifecenter in college park. It is close to me. I spoke with the owner who gladly took the un-used knife back and reimbursed me of all costs.

Maybe give them another chance.

In the end I probably should have kept the Vietnam edition.....

Hope it works out for you,

Kevin
 
I think the majority of the bad feeling comes from the first reply where most of the OP's email was ignored and instead a more or less formula reply was used.

If the CRM person would have read through the email and realized that 1)the OP is not in the US and therefore USPS is most likely not an option (I would question at this point if they would actually refund the international shipping fee which is likely to be high compared to USPS), and 2) there were 2 questions in the email regarding the axe (rivet and edge), the reply would not feel as if it was written without much thought.

My company has a strict CRM policy, any messages from a consumer is filtered to the responsible party and no valid questions are allowed to go without a researched answer for more than 1 week. Yes, it is very tiresome, I've been through some of the emails. But in the end, I think it is worth it.

just to clarify, I have ordered from knifecenter before and my orders were without incident fulfilled. I am in the US but I have ordered from abroad and I could certainly appreciate the position the OP is in.
 
i really wouldnt call that a horrible exchange. you asked knifecenter what they thought a fair solution was, you didnt think what they offered was fair, so you upped the ante, hey, they made a mistake, they are willing to fix it.

you mentioned youre in korea. maybe the rep should of known their are additional issues/costs with returns/sends, but would it of hurt to make mention of that rather then just assume it was read, 100% understood from your perspective and ignored?

is it possible your ax was opened by customs and dinged up? or at least repacked without the original packaging? i cant count how many packages ive recieved from knifecenter and all have been over packed with bubble wrap or paper.
 
cuphead said:
Give them a chance, he/she doesn't speak Korean, GOD!!!!!
Click to expand...

John Frankl is an Ivy League taught scholar, and subsequent teacher...he speaks both English and Korean better than 99.9 percent of the humans on the planet, as well as being a fine 'smith, training with some of the best.

His complaint is valid...and he is posting it in the correct sub-forum....do you have anything of import to add to this discussion, CUPHEAD?

If you care to take this to Whine & Cheese, we could discuss it there.

STeven Garsson
 
The management of Knifecenter was at the SHOT show and it looks like they dropped the ball. Ask for Jason. he will take care of you. Tell him Anthony L. sent you.
 
I think that if Knifecenter is willing to cover all costs involved in exchanging the wrong axe for the right one, that is all they should be expected to do. The inconvenience of having to pack up the axe and send it back to them is part and parcel of ordering something that has to be shipped to you. If Knifecenter does international shipping, they have to realize that if something is wrong with one of their shipments that they should cover all costs to make things right, unless stated otherwise in their terms of sale.
 
I think Horizon Seeker has posted a thoughtful response, along with others, but also an empathic one too.

The $100 per hour and additional charges for tire wear definitely upped the ante. A suggestion, no doubt, offering an unreasonable position on your part to counter what seemed an unresponsive response on theirs.

Inconvenient as it is, it's best to get through this impasse. I suggest sending the axe back. Get the axe you want. Don't let this spoil your enjoyment of the product you wanted.

Those of us who enjoy this hobby have little choice but to use the internet to shop from a distance. Its disappointing when things don't happen as they "should", but sometimes I'm amazed that things go as should go, as often as they do. Part of the cost.

I hope you can take it in stride, roll with the occasional punches, and keep enjoying this hobby.

And while I'm on the topic, are there any edged weapon...I mean, edged sharp tool makers in Korea of note that you can recommend. While I'm partial to Japanese martial arts, and their implements of...ahhh, agriculture, I know Korea has it's longstanding traditions too. I hope there are some specialty implement makers you can tell us about.

Regards,

Brent
 
Thank you all for the perspective. I was asking for second opinionS precisely because I know it is easy to lose sight of the big picture sometimes.

I sent several digital photos of the (wrong) product, blown out rivet, and damaged edge along with my note, so I don't think anyone suspected me of fraud. Rather, they gave me a "canned" response that insulted my intelligence ("NO, really, all our axes arrive with both the sheath and edge damaged, it's company policy.").

And, yes, I was trying to get a little bit extra for my trouble. They were going to pay for shipping anyway, and I was going to buy another axe. They would have been out precisely the $13 they got rather snotty about. Now they are out the $13 anyway, as I am not going to return this. And they are out the second axe, which I will buy somewhere else--I believe we still live in a free market society. And, most importantly, they are out a customer who probably would have spent at least a few hundred more dollars over the next several years, and recommended other customers. Do the math--$13. Both of my brothers run businesses. They would rather eat a lot more than $13 if it meant the difference between a satisfied customer and one who feels like I do now.

Again, I see the validity of almost all the posts above, but am just providing my own subjective view of the situation.

Thank you,

John
 
One thing people need to understand is that internet e-commerce knife dealers work on a very thin margin. There simply isn't much room to engage in the same kind of customer service that is possible with e-commerce dealers that work with a full margin. It is a fact of life. Any return at all generates a loss on the sale. Shipping charges are often greater than the gross profit earned on the sale. That's just the way things are.

Personally, I think Knife Center handled the thing appropriately and professionally. Because a company can't or won't do everything you ask, is not an indication of poor customer service. Often it is just the realities of business. Knife Center is the grandfather of all of us. They were the pioneers at internet knife selling. They know what they can and can't do and they do what they do very well.

I know it's tough being in the Military in Korea. I've been there myself. If you don't want the axe, then send it back. They offered to reimburse the shipping charge. That's pretty reasonable. We all make mistakes.
 
Edit because I missed you last post.

Yes I agree they have decided their reputation is not worth $13. I would do as you're doing, move on to someone else.
 
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