So going around the property today I was looking for some metal to make blades out of. Any suggestions on what I might have around the house that will make a good blade? i.e. lawn mower blades, bush trimmer blades, etc. I'm not sure I'm ready to dive into buying stock yet. Would like to make something I'm proud of first(that works).
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Household materials
- Thread starter Camden
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Your other thread is mostly related - the best answers are already there.
Very little you can find around the house is able to make a good knife.
If it is, you don't know how to heat treat it because you don't know the steel type.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/926236-Weld-steel?p=10511815#post10511815
You've already found the place down the road, considering all the work it takes, starting with a good bit of steel is the cheapest thing.
Very little you can find around the house is able to make a good knife.
If it is, you don't know how to heat treat it because you don't know the steel type.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/926236-Weld-steel?p=10511815#post10511815
You've already found the place down the road, considering all the work it takes, starting with a good bit of steel is the cheapest thing.
Yep, start with a known metal and the knife you end up with will be the best you can make. Even that old cleaver isn't necessarily going to be made from metal that's good enough to make a proper knife because it relies on weight and edge geometry to part meat and bones. Could be some really great steel. Could be some nasty junk. Could be anything in between.
Same could be said for the file. What if you go through all that work only to find out that the file was case-hardened steel instead of tool steel? Now you've got dozens of hours into making a knife only to end up with a mild steel knife-like object. That axe head might be a mild steel body with a bit of tool steel welded to the front to provide a good edge. You just don't know.
Or, you can shell out $20 and buy a nice piece of O1 and some pin stock, and a chunk of nice handle material, from a reputable parts supplier. The end product is the best knife you can personally make out of it.
Same could be said for the file. What if you go through all that work only to find out that the file was case-hardened steel instead of tool steel? Now you've got dozens of hours into making a knife only to end up with a mild steel knife-like object. That axe head might be a mild steel body with a bit of tool steel welded to the front to provide a good edge. You just don't know.
Or, you can shell out $20 and buy a nice piece of O1 and some pin stock, and a chunk of nice handle material, from a reputable parts supplier. The end product is the best knife you can personally make out of it.
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It's cheaper and easier to just use bar stock.
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Only use found materials if you have no other choice as like others said; it's far easier to use quality stock. The time it takes to prepare a lawnmorer blade; for example, simply isn't worth it. I know because I'm in a position where I'm having to make do with whatever I have; which in my case, is lawnmorer blades and branches..
It takes forever to get all of the rust pits out, the material evenly flattened, etc and you're not even sure if it'll be worth using due to it being unknown material. If you don't anneal it..it's even more trouble as regular drill bits won't touch it, grinding is much slower, most files aren't designed for hardened steel (that I know of), and hand finishing becomes one hell of a chore. The only reason I'm carrying on despite all of this is because I'm not going to let a lack of materials stop me. I should be able to order more soon though; which brings me right back to what the others said:
Start with a known material if you can.
It takes forever to get all of the rust pits out, the material evenly flattened, etc and you're not even sure if it'll be worth using due to it being unknown material. If you don't anneal it..it's even more trouble as regular drill bits won't touch it, grinding is much slower, most files aren't designed for hardened steel (that I know of), and hand finishing becomes one hell of a chore. The only reason I'm carrying on despite all of this is because I'm not going to let a lack of materials stop me. I should be able to order more soon though; which brings me right back to what the others said:
Start with a known material if you can.
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Let me see if I have this straight:
You don't want to use a known piece of "barstock" that you know will make a good, usable knife, but you don't want to "practice" on anything around the house unless IT MIGHT make a good usable knife?
Not sure I follow the reasoning there.
I'm not sure what your other thread was about, or what was suggested there, but trust me... The minimal cost of buying a good piece of carbon steel flatstock far outweighs the wasted time and headaches that come with trying to make a knife that MIGHT be usable after you attempt to heat treat it.
Consider this:
You find an old file rusting away behind the workbench in your shop.
You spend an hour or so building a fire in the back yard and getting the coals hot enough to take your mystery file up to critical temp.
You then bury said file in some vermiculite and come back several hours later.
You start filing, drilling, and hack sawing this mystery piece of steel, and 6 broken/dull drill bits, 3 broken/dull hacksaw blades, and 2 dull files later (not to mention about 10 hours worth of cussing, spitting, kicking, and wondering why the heck anybody could ever find this enjoyable), you have something that might half way resemble a knife.
A glimmer of hope appears! Now it's time to heat treat!
Spend another few hours using your heat treating method of choice, tempering, and cleaning scale off of your new found labor of love, and then another 5 or 6 hours putting a handle and an edge on your knife, and then sit back and admire your creation. Now it's time to test the edge!
After about 5 minutes of cutting cardboard, rope, and whatever else you can find to decimate around the shop, you realize the unthinkable:
That file was case hardened mild steel. Congratulations. you've now just wasted 47 hours of your time, about $36.79 worth of drill bits, saw blades, and files, and to top it all off, you've turned yourself off of knife making forever.
Buy some good steel.
If you absolutely feel like you need to practice, go to the scrap yard and get a few pieces of scrap flat stock that roughly mimics the dimension of 1084 that you're going to buy from Aldo after reading this response, and file, drill, cut, and grind on that until your heart is content. Then use the left overs for templates for your real knife.
You don't want to use a known piece of "barstock" that you know will make a good, usable knife, but you don't want to "practice" on anything around the house unless IT MIGHT make a good usable knife?
Not sure I follow the reasoning there.
I'm not sure what your other thread was about, or what was suggested there, but trust me... The minimal cost of buying a good piece of carbon steel flatstock far outweighs the wasted time and headaches that come with trying to make a knife that MIGHT be usable after you attempt to heat treat it.
Consider this:
You find an old file rusting away behind the workbench in your shop.
You spend an hour or so building a fire in the back yard and getting the coals hot enough to take your mystery file up to critical temp.
You then bury said file in some vermiculite and come back several hours later.
You start filing, drilling, and hack sawing this mystery piece of steel, and 6 broken/dull drill bits, 3 broken/dull hacksaw blades, and 2 dull files later (not to mention about 10 hours worth of cussing, spitting, kicking, and wondering why the heck anybody could ever find this enjoyable), you have something that might half way resemble a knife.
A glimmer of hope appears! Now it's time to heat treat!
Spend another few hours using your heat treating method of choice, tempering, and cleaning scale off of your new found labor of love, and then another 5 or 6 hours putting a handle and an edge on your knife, and then sit back and admire your creation. Now it's time to test the edge!
After about 5 minutes of cutting cardboard, rope, and whatever else you can find to decimate around the shop, you realize the unthinkable:
That file was case hardened mild steel. Congratulations. you've now just wasted 47 hours of your time, about $36.79 worth of drill bits, saw blades, and files, and to top it all off, you've turned yourself off of knife making forever.
Buy some good steel.
If you absolutely feel like you need to practice, go to the scrap yard and get a few pieces of scrap flat stock that roughly mimics the dimension of 1084 that you're going to buy from Aldo after reading this response, and file, drill, cut, and grind on that until your heart is content. Then use the left overs for templates for your real knife.
I think your sarcasm is a bit unnecessary. I have ground out some weld steel into knives but they only could be case hardened so began my search for other material around the house to make a useable knife before buying flat stock. On a more productive note.... I found some leaf springs that I'm thinking will work based on googlemagic. After I produce a knife that I AM impressed with and works then I'm going metal shopping. Speaking of which I've been liking what I've read about 52100...any thoughts? Also this mystery 1095 crovan or "cv" metal I've read about... Where can I purchase it?
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Hi Camden,
Welcome to the club! It's really cool to see steel turn into a knife. I hope I always remember the first time I put steel up to the grinder...
I don't think KTAG's post was exactly sarcasm. I've seen many of his posts over the months, and he's not really the sarcastic type. I think he was really trying to help - all too many folk made a couple of knives and then wished they had made them out of real steel. If you've thought through it and it doesn't apply to you, great.
A 48" long piece of 1.25 x 48" 1084 is like $20 from Aldo. You could make at least 4 knives from that - so it's like $5 in steel per knife. Given the costs in sandpaper, files, and time, it's really a favor for KTAG to at least mention his thoughts. If you think about it, it probably took at least 20 minutes, and probably more, to write the post, and he provided potentially useful information for free just because you asked.
Good luck with the leaf springs - a lot of good knives have been made from them.
In the (NEAR) future: Another part of the magic of knifemaking is seeing just how great a knife can be made with good heat treating. So, when you decide you are ready, it's well worth the relatively small investment to get known steel and heat treat accordingly.
Welcome to the club! It's really cool to see steel turn into a knife. I hope I always remember the first time I put steel up to the grinder...
I don't think KTAG's post was exactly sarcasm. I've seen many of his posts over the months, and he's not really the sarcastic type. I think he was really trying to help - all too many folk made a couple of knives and then wished they had made them out of real steel. If you've thought through it and it doesn't apply to you, great.
A 48" long piece of 1.25 x 48" 1084 is like $20 from Aldo. You could make at least 4 knives from that - so it's like $5 in steel per knife. Given the costs in sandpaper, files, and time, it's really a favor for KTAG to at least mention his thoughts. If you think about it, it probably took at least 20 minutes, and probably more, to write the post, and he provided potentially useful information for free just because you asked.
Good luck with the leaf springs - a lot of good knives have been made from them.
In the (NEAR) future: Another part of the magic of knifemaking is seeing just how great a knife can be made with good heat treating. So, when you decide you are ready, it's well worth the relatively small investment to get known steel and heat treat accordingly.
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While I may have had a couple failed attempts at humor, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic.
A lot of new makers burn themselves out for many of the reasons I stated above, before they even complete knife #1. Ambition quickly turns to contempt, and what might have turned into years of an enjoyable hobby turns into just another one of those things "tried and failed", then thrown in a drawer or closet on top of yesteryears projects and hobbies.
It may seem like a good idea to save a few bucks here or there by "recycling" that old mower blade, file, crop disc, saw blade, leaf spring, etc... but you are really creating so much unnecessary work for yourself, not to mention stress and headaches. Furthermore, it's all based on a gamble that the steel you're using is even any good, and even if it is "useable knife steel", that a generic heat treat and tempering process (heat to non-magnetic, quench in some old oil, temper in kitchen oven at 350F to 450F, and hope for the best) is even going to work all that well. Maybe I make some assumptions here, but I'd hazard a guess that a majority of new makers do exactly that.
I don't know about you, buy my time and efforts are worth a heck of a lot more than the $5 or 6$ that it'd cost to buy a good piece of steel, that I know will heat treat a temper a cerain way, and also that I know will be relatively flat, true, and parallel and easy to drill, cut, and grind.
Heck, a lot of guys on this forum would probably send you a piece of good steel, or even offer to heat treat the thing for you.
I'm just trying to help you get started on the right foot. Sorry if my post came across in a way that was not intentional.
A lot of new makers burn themselves out for many of the reasons I stated above, before they even complete knife #1. Ambition quickly turns to contempt, and what might have turned into years of an enjoyable hobby turns into just another one of those things "tried and failed", then thrown in a drawer or closet on top of yesteryears projects and hobbies.
It may seem like a good idea to save a few bucks here or there by "recycling" that old mower blade, file, crop disc, saw blade, leaf spring, etc... but you are really creating so much unnecessary work for yourself, not to mention stress and headaches. Furthermore, it's all based on a gamble that the steel you're using is even any good, and even if it is "useable knife steel", that a generic heat treat and tempering process (heat to non-magnetic, quench in some old oil, temper in kitchen oven at 350F to 450F, and hope for the best) is even going to work all that well. Maybe I make some assumptions here, but I'd hazard a guess that a majority of new makers do exactly that.
I don't know about you, buy my time and efforts are worth a heck of a lot more than the $5 or 6$ that it'd cost to buy a good piece of steel, that I know will heat treat a temper a cerain way, and also that I know will be relatively flat, true, and parallel and easy to drill, cut, and grind.
Heck, a lot of guys on this forum would probably send you a piece of good steel, or even offer to heat treat the thing for you.
I'm just trying to help you get started on the right foot. Sorry if my post came across in a way that was not intentional.
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Ill be the odd guy out. BUT, I will argue both sides.
Found steel.
I started in found steel. Leaf springs, coil springs, nicholson files, lawnmower blades, hay rake teeth, crowbars, tire irons, torsion bars, and anything else I could findd that was heat-treatable. What I found is that as long as whatever the steel type was had done a relatively good job at what it was in its previous life, it would make a useable knife. the key being "did a reasonably good job at what it had before". file that wore out really fast? bad file= probably bad knife. broken leaf spring? high chance of a bad knife. I learned alot about heat treat, finetuning the heat treat to each piece of steel, not just each type, but EACH PIECE. There is also a cool factor to "this knife was made from a spring from my granddad's favorite truck". Steel is free or next to it. If you screw it up, not much lost but time {if you have more time than money, great}. There are times when I would rather make a certain blade from found steel. I really like leaf springs for my big choppers {20" oal type}, a special knife for someone to remember "knife from grandad's truck spring. Im also planning on making a railroad spike knife soon. If you have no money,{or are extremely cheap} and alot of time, found steel MAY be what you are looking for. Personaly, the times that I made a knife from found steel that was defective, out of steel that had previously been good in its former life were very few. For rough guess, Id say Ive made several hundred "found steel" knives.
Bought steel from known supplier: Aldo, jantz, mcmaster carr, ect...
like driving a car after riding a bicycle! known steel type, and heat treat sequence! need different size? pick up the phone! I would say that KTAG's absoulutly right about final cost per knife being less with bought steel. I test EVERY knife I make before finishing and handles, to make ABSOLUTLY sure that anyone who gets that blade will get good service out of it. if I wont sign my name to it, it gets fixed, or tested to destruction so it wont have the chance of failing someone. When I get a order of steel, the first blade gets tested severely to make sure my HT is tuned to that lot of steel. I have not ever had to make changes with bought steel of the same type from the same supplier. leaf springs may need different HT's from spring to spring, even in the same pack from the same truck. 98% of the time, the bought steel is flat, straight, and annealed well. that is quite a few fewer steps, that you dont have to do. When/if you sell the knife, folks know what 1095 is made of, same with 52100 {great steel by the way}, 5160, ect.... When you say "this was made out of an old leaf spring and "could" be 5160, 1080, or any number of different steels that have been made into leaf springs over the years, what are they buying? could be good, could be bad. would you take that chance with your hard-earned dollars?
So you decide. found steel or bought. I can recomend either way. If you decide found steel you MUST learn about spark tests, commonly used steel for differnt applications, quench/break tests, how to break stock down to useable sizes and get the tools to do that, and test each individual piece. Each lawnmower blade should have a test blade made from it and TESTED to make sure that your HT is right for that steel, since you dont KNOW what its made from, then you can make another knife from it. If you decide bought steel, call Aldo, get a piece as close to what you want the finished blade to be, form the blade, and use the HT directions for that steel, test it to double check, and away you go.
Found steel.
I started in found steel. Leaf springs, coil springs, nicholson files, lawnmower blades, hay rake teeth, crowbars, tire irons, torsion bars, and anything else I could findd that was heat-treatable. What I found is that as long as whatever the steel type was had done a relatively good job at what it was in its previous life, it would make a useable knife. the key being "did a reasonably good job at what it had before". file that wore out really fast? bad file= probably bad knife. broken leaf spring? high chance of a bad knife. I learned alot about heat treat, finetuning the heat treat to each piece of steel, not just each type, but EACH PIECE. There is also a cool factor to "this knife was made from a spring from my granddad's favorite truck". Steel is free or next to it. If you screw it up, not much lost but time {if you have more time than money, great}. There are times when I would rather make a certain blade from found steel. I really like leaf springs for my big choppers {20" oal type}, a special knife for someone to remember "knife from grandad's truck spring. Im also planning on making a railroad spike knife soon. If you have no money,{or are extremely cheap} and alot of time, found steel MAY be what you are looking for. Personaly, the times that I made a knife from found steel that was defective, out of steel that had previously been good in its former life were very few. For rough guess, Id say Ive made several hundred "found steel" knives.
Bought steel from known supplier: Aldo, jantz, mcmaster carr, ect...
like driving a car after riding a bicycle! known steel type, and heat treat sequence! need different size? pick up the phone! I would say that KTAG's absoulutly right about final cost per knife being less with bought steel. I test EVERY knife I make before finishing and handles, to make ABSOLUTLY sure that anyone who gets that blade will get good service out of it. if I wont sign my name to it, it gets fixed, or tested to destruction so it wont have the chance of failing someone. When I get a order of steel, the first blade gets tested severely to make sure my HT is tuned to that lot of steel. I have not ever had to make changes with bought steel of the same type from the same supplier. leaf springs may need different HT's from spring to spring, even in the same pack from the same truck. 98% of the time, the bought steel is flat, straight, and annealed well. that is quite a few fewer steps, that you dont have to do. When/if you sell the knife, folks know what 1095 is made of, same with 52100 {great steel by the way}, 5160, ect.... When you say "this was made out of an old leaf spring and "could" be 5160, 1080, or any number of different steels that have been made into leaf springs over the years, what are they buying? could be good, could be bad. would you take that chance with your hard-earned dollars?
So you decide. found steel or bought. I can recomend either way. If you decide found steel you MUST learn about spark tests, commonly used steel for differnt applications, quench/break tests, how to break stock down to useable sizes and get the tools to do that, and test each individual piece. Each lawnmower blade should have a test blade made from it and TESTED to make sure that your HT is right for that steel, since you dont KNOW what its made from, then you can make another knife from it. If you decide bought steel, call Aldo, get a piece as close to what you want the finished blade to be, form the blade, and use the HT directions for that steel, test it to double check, and away you go.
Yes. I made a toolbox forge the heat and quench in 30 weight used oil. I recently made a new forge out of a propane tank (I found 20 on my property). My theory with the propane tank is oxygen reduction while heating. I'm gonna add a thermometer to it eventually.
haha yeah it's just an old tool box I attached a blower to and lined with slate and drilled holes in the bottom. A poor mans forge I suppose. If I knew how to post pictures I would show it.
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If I recall correctly:
Free accounts can't post pictures directly, but can post links to pictures on other sites.
Paying accounts can post pictures but can get in trouble for posting them for folks with free accounts.
So, you can post with photobucket or the like and link to them from here.
Free accounts can't post pictures directly, but can post links to pictures on other sites.
Paying accounts can post pictures but can get in trouble for posting them for folks with free accounts.
So, you can post with photobucket or the like and link to them from here.
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- Jul 13, 2009
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- 21,855
That will work, just keep the flame off the steel (EDITED of the tool box) or you can melt it in a hurry.
If you're going to use that, you will find that the real charcoal works better.
You can make your own if you have wood.
those glued together briquettes aren't as good, I'm sure others can tell you why.
If you're going to use that, you will find that the real charcoal works better.
You can make your own if you have wood.
those glued together briquettes aren't as good, I'm sure others can tell you why.
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