How Buck Rates it Steel?

Flatlander1963

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This chart got posted in the Review forum in that ongoing never-ending thread about 420hc.

Anyway, I'd like to know from you Buck insiders if this is a actual Buck Document? And if so, does Buck truly rate its 420hc higher than its 154cm??? Comments?

BuckSteelChart.jpg
 
humm..seems the doc nis real and was for cabilas
i had thought some one had put together a doc cut and past
i did not think that buck used 440 A
 
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I guess also that 420HC could be rated higher than 154CM, but only as far as sharpenability and corrosion resistant go. (according to that chart)

We all buy what we like anyway ;) I dont care about any charts ;) LOL
 
I guess also that 420HC could be rated higher than 154CM, but only as far as sharpenability and corrosion resistant go. (according to that chart)

We all buy what we like anyway ;) I dont care about any charts ;) LOL

Hi Postfallsidaho,
I personally try to think of steels as being different and good for different things. 420HC compared to 154CM has both ups and downs. Toughness, corrosion resistance, ease of production and ease of sharpening is for sure better for 420HC. Wear resistance, which many hold as the ONLY important property, is much better for 154CM. Also marketing value (wow-factor) is much higher for 154CM.

Depending on what I'd use the knife for I would make my steel choice.

//Jerker
 
This chart got posted in the Review forum in that ongoing never-ending thread about 420hc.

Anyway, I'd like to know from you Buck insiders if this is a actual Buck Document? And if so, does Buck truly rate its 420hc higher than its 154cm??? Comments?

BuckSteelChart.jpg



I can't say if this chart is a real Buck document, but the information is not too far off.

You have to remember that Edge retention and sharpenability are generally inversely proportional. In other words, as edge retention gets better, sharpenability gets more difficult.

I am oversimplifying this, but there are two things that generally affect edge retention in blade steel - the size and distribution of carbides in the steel, and the rockwell hardness of the blade. What makes S30V such a great steel for knife blades if that it has a very even distribution of large carbides - this makes the steel quite 'wear resistant'. When you sharpen a knife, you are literally wearing away the blade with an abrasive surface, so a blade that has great wear resistance will take more work to re-sharpen. The other great thing about S30V is that it can be heat treated to a higher rockwell hardness without getting brittle.

154CM is a fine steel as well. It is a rolled steel (as opposed to Crucible Powdered Metal products like CPMS30V), but it can also be left at a higher rockwell hardness without becoming brittle.

When it comes down to it, there is nothing wrong with 420HC - it is a fantastic steel - good edge retention, easy to re-sharpen, it mirror polishes like a dream (if that's your thing), and it is much easier to work with in a manufacturing situation. We have all become such steel snobs in the last few years, but it is important to note that good ole' 420HC is still a great general purpose stainless steel.
 
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Hi Postfallsidaho,
I personally try to think of steels as being different and good for different things.....
Depending on what I'd use the knife for I would make my steel choice.
//Jerker

i fully agree with both of you as to pick a steel for what you need it to do!

charts say so much visually ..
i would like to see a graft of all the steels like this!
 
Depending on what I'd use the knife for I would make my steel choice.

//Jerker

I agree with everything you stated Jerker, but what I meant is what I quoted from you. No matter what the charts or graphs say I like what I like ;)

S30V is my current choice if its available, but I have knives with all of the steels listed and have no complaints! I can hardly wait to try some Sandvik now :)
 
I agree with everything you stated Jerker, but what I meant is what I quoted from you. No matter what the charts or graphs say I like what I like ;)

S30V is my current choice if its available, but I have knives with all of the steels listed and have no complaints! I can hardly wait to try some Sandvik now :)

Hi postfallsidaho,
Let me know what you think of it.
//Jerker
 
Jimmer. I've found that S30V does hard brittle concerns @ hardness above 58.Buck did saw this as well and addressed this in their heat treating.The same for 154cm only at hardness above 59RC.Is what I found.DM
 
Well it turns out this chart is in my paperwork for the Stag AG110. The color chart in this thread may be a repo from that information...that doesn't matter. So it seems its an actual Buck document.

I do see an issue with positioning on the chart. I think that anyone that looks at this chart will read it as showing improving overall desirability (as a knife steel) from left to right. Clearly S30V is the best knife steel on that chart, we all know it. I took a swag (pulled out my trusty ruler) at the total point values shown. I came up with 196-154cm, 198-HC, & 203-S30V.

So each bar is given equal weight and value. Sharpenability seems subjective. Well it is a stretch for me to rate 420HC higher than 154CM as a knife steel. Maybe the guys at Buck will shed some light on the positioning and if they are really trying to say to the world that their 420HC is the second best steel on that chart.
 
Jimmer. I've found that S30V does hard brittle concerns @ hardness above 58.Buck did saw this as well and addressed this in their heat treating.The same for 154cm only at hardness above 59RC.Is what I found.DM

Hi David,
Both powder steels and coarse high alloy grades share the same weakness. It's there lack of edge stability, they tend to chip if the edge angles are small.

For knives with this profile carbon steels takes the very best edge, closely followed by fine carbide steels and then lower alloyed martensitics like 420, 420HC and 440A.

I see that this is not percieved as a major problem in the US since you normally use more obtuse edge angles than we do over here in Scandinavia for instance.
//Jerker
 
I'm not very good on the technical side of steels so I sent the chart to the engineers to review. Now I am thinking it may have actually come from the marketing department with input from engineering.
In my capacity here at Buck, i listen to customers all day long talking about their favorite steels. You want to know that the winner is, head and shoulders about all the rest?
Sorry, no winner, that was a tease. :D
I do get the most positive compliments about the 420hc but that is because thats what we have the most of out there in use. I rarely hear a bad comment about ANY of the steels to be honest.
Most of the bad comments fall into 2 categories:
1)Its an older Buck, with that very thick edge that can be dificult to resharpen.
2)The blade did not work as a pry bar and now the tip is missing. :rolleyes:

I have always said that the best knife for your job at hand is the knife you say it is.
How many time this week have I listened to someone tout the greatness of a knife made from an old file? That rusty old thing??? Who am I to judge, thats why we use so many diferent steels.
That my 2cents...
 
Well it turns out this chart is in my paperwork for the Stag AG110. The color chart in this thread may be a repo from that information...that doesn't matter. So it seems its an actual Buck document.

I do see an issue with positioning on the chart. I think that anyone that looks at this chart will read it as showing improving overall desirability (as a knife steel) from left to right. Clearly S30V is the best knife steel on that chart, we all know it. I took a swag (pulled out my trusty ruler) at the total point values shown. I came up with 196-154cm, 198-HC, & 203-S30V.

So each bar is given equal weight and value. Sharpenability seems subjective. Well it is a stretch for me to rate 420HC higher than 154CM as a knife steel. Maybe the guys at Buck will shed some light on the positioning and if they are really trying to say to the world that their 420HC is the second best steel on that chart.


Buck isn't trying to say that 420HC is better - they're just being honest about the fact that it is a little bit more corrosion resistant and easier to sharpen. Regardless of what us steel snobs think, 420HC is a great steel - it makes a fine knife blade that holds a good edge, re-sharpens easily, polishes like a dream, and is consistent and relatively easy to manufacture knives out of. This chart is not intended to show a clear ranking - it is meant to break down the 3 most relevant characteristics of the steel for the consumer so they can choose the steel that suits their needs most effectively.

The 'point' (no pun intended) of a knife is to cut things. Therefore, if you had to rank sharpenability, corrosion resistance, and edge retention, I would imagine most people who their time on dry land would rate Edge Retention highest. If you were a commercial salt-water fisherman, you might rank corrosion resistance highest. Hunters who like to be able to re-sharpen quickly partway through skinning an Elk might rank sharpenability highest.

S30V and 154CM are steels that focus on edge retention. Yes, they will be a little harder to sharpen, but under prolonged use, they will stay sharp and cut better for longer. Some have pointed out that they can be a bit brittle at times. This can be true. If you need more shock resistance, you may want to check out some non-stainless carbon steels - they exhibit these kind of properties. Stainless steels have always been a compromise - we give up a little performance so they don't get rusty just sitting in our pockets.

In a manufacturing situation, they often end up get ranked by cost and difficulty of manufacture (in addition to performance). But the general rule is that as performance goes up, so does difficulty of manufacture. S30V is the most expensive as a raw material, and it is the hardest on Buck's grinding equipment. It eats up grinding wheels and sanding belts faster because it is tough and wear resistant. 154CM is a little cheaper and a little easier on the equipment. 420 is cheaper still, and a lot easier on the equipment, but it's not that much worse at holding an edge. If you were looking for the best bargain, 420HC would be the champ all day long. If you want better edge retention, go with 154CM or S30V.
 
The document in question was developed for Cabelas as they have taken a real interest in educating their customers (which only helps us). We rated ease to resharpen and 420HC tops that measurement. I am not positive just what role we played in the graphs.

When I am helping someone make a purchase decision I often ask them how they intend to use the knife and if they like to take care of their stuff or if they do not like to think about it but it needs to be ready when they need it. Corrosion resistance and easy to resharpen are top requirements for a light duty use knife.

I really like that we are offering well thought through alternatives in steels.
 
A lot of very good comments and points; unfortunately some misunderstandings and misconceptions as well. Jimmer_5 put things very well. The chart is intended to provide a RELATIVE measure of three significant features/aspect of various blade steels. There is no industry accepted standard for edge holding; there is no industry accepted standard for sharpenability; there is no (knife) industry accepted standard for corrosion resistance- this last one could be measured via ASTM and/or Mil Spec standards, but to most people this data would make little if any sense or have little value.

As with most materials, not just steel, as you improve/increase one aspect of them, you give up or diminish some other aspect. In the case of the blade steels, as you improve edge holding you begin to give up corrosion resistance- it's a chemistry thing- add carbon to increase hardness, diminish the ability to resist rusting.

In a nutshell, properly heat treated and sharpened (both critical) 154CM, S30V, etc will hold an edge better than 420HC hands down. From an orverall standpoint, when properly heat treated and sharpened, 420HC offers good edge holding, very good corrosion resistance and very good sharpenability. That is what the graph was intended to convey. There is one other feature that 420HC provides; as pointed out by Jimmer_5, 420HC offers good economic value to both the end user and the manufacturer. it processes well and provides a good general use blade.

Bill Keys
Director, Lean Manufacturing & Engineering
Buck Knives, Inc
 
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