how can we Control Heat using PAssive Way.

G

Gabaski

Joined
Jul 22, 2010
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I am doing some test myself and looking and reading up more info on how to Control Heat from LGP gas temperature using Passive way.

What am i saying . i am working With O-1 Steel and knowing 787C- 815C is best for Hardening it .


i am hunting for way to control the Heat of Any LPG or Gas burner .


here a few idea. hopefully Creative enough .

1. Salt is Said to MELT at 801C

2 . Lead Melting Point is 600F

3. Copper - Melting point 1083.4°C ( D2 Passive control )

4. Silver Melting Point 961.78 °C ( other Steel )

5. Gold Melting Point is 1063°C ( you can jolly well buy a good Oven if you going to use Gold . so is very much out )

I am trying to work out some way to Control The Heat using Known Info or how Heat is transfer from one material to another .

Sharing this idea so we can all produce better Knife .

Few Gabaski Idea . -

Firing Up the O-1 Steel on top of Another Metal or material . using that as a passive guide for what is needed .

Adding known Melting Point material on it or over it or on conducting Surface to Passive control the heat that is Needed .

of cos all this is when the option of High tech digital Read out is not an Option .
 
Here's what I was told a few months ago:

Putting pure salt ( kosher or rock) on a piece of steel is an old blacksmith trick to determine when the metal is at the approximate temperature to quench. Rock salt melts at 1300F/700C. In the modern age, a magnet is easier to use, and tells you when the metal reaches about 1350F/735C.

A file ( assumed to be about 1095/W1) steel needs to be heated to about 100F/50C degrees higher than non-magnetic temperature ( around 1450F/785C). If being annealed, it needs to cool slowly after being heated to 1450F. If being hardened, it needs to be held at that temperature for a few minutes, and then quenched in a fast oil or brine. You will need, at the minimum, a propane torch ( Bernzomatic JT-7 torch will work) to do both the annealing and the hardening.
 
Thanks for Both the Great advice .

i read up a lot about magnet . i can;t recall where i read it , but magnet is a little short of 800C which i am trying to reach .. maybe 80-100C short .

while if i try and gain experience from doing so i can tell . how many More min i need to keep the steel in the Forge ,

but what i am trying to do is to Create a production process which can be proof . and allow you better control and indication of the heat .

Thus , giving you a better result that you will be able to reproduce .

pardon me but after all i am a production Guys so i am alway looking for way to control the Process.

I was wondering if i can steel a magnet to the back of the Knife and urn it together and when it fall off i just burn it for a few more min . or vice versa.

since magnet is kinda cheap . would it work as a passive indicator .
 
Most magnets will not survive the heat inside your forge/furnace. You generally have to take the piece of steel out, then check it with the magnet.
 
i am not trying to say magnet is not a Good way . in fact i am sure many Great Smith had some how Learn from experience using Magnet to create great Knife .

what i am trying to do is to Discover other possible or passive way to get a similar a much control result with info we got .

- The Gap is really small of 787C- 815C - with mere 28C to play with .

:) Noted , he crazy magnet idea is just one example of trying to find other passive way to control the heat .

i was also thinking . making SALT BRICK to support the Steel and using a Slow Flame .

by doing so Once it Move we would know the Salt had melted . but stilll no test had been done to prove otherwise if it work at all .

.
 
I am Sure i will be building One of This , once i can figure out how to get my Supply . Else where then Thailand . i called many company for quote , the reply i got for Simple Thermocouple Type K is like $400USD Crazy price there are asking . anyway i am still hunting and looking for way to get my Oven Up .

This thread is also more like a feedback thread to help understand the relationship of material and heat . as to how to improve and way to perfect the Art of Knife making bettering control of what you do .

Thanks Stacy
 
Maybe a welding supply store can you temperature crayons or paint.

I have seen them in temps up to 1100C in 10C increments...

The crayon (more like chalk) or paint turns liquid at a specified temperature.
I use the paint on my ECS knives to draw back a very small part to spring temper.

Works for me.
 
Can you not get a type K, and reader from ebay? I bought one direct from China via ebay, and it was $10 for the duel input digital reader unit, and possibly $30 ish for a decent length type K. Postage was minimal to the UK.

A set of tempil crayons will cost you more than that.

The fundimental problem with what you are proposing is you have no measure of temperature overshoot, and no way of calibrating your passive salts, or whatever you use. You are really screwed when it comes to running reducing heat normalising cycles where you need to hold within a few degrees each cycle. No way of checking for hotspots in the kiln without positioning multiple samples of 'melting stuff' , and to look at them to check if they have melted you will have to open the door and it will drop about 150c when you do !

No point re-inventing the wheel, its already round and called a thermocouple :)

I am sure I have seen posts on here from a guy who has a very nice 'small batch' workshop set up for knifemaking in Thailand, why not get in touch with him and find out his suppliers details?
 
. The last time i try to find a Knife maker IN thailand , he is selling his KMG clone for like $2500USD . without the Motor and VFC .

So i end up making my Own KMG clone at the local CNC and miller . now i got it Done after 1 month . . even got a OMRON VFC after placing special order with OMRON THAILAND and wait for 3 week for them to get it from japan .

Here in Thailand i think their trying to Guard their commercial secret by not sharing . since most Thai do not read English and the few who do prefer to keep it a huge secret .

only a hand full of guys is willing to share .

Took me 1 month to contact DUpont just to get hold of CORAIN . imagine that . but i did secure supply of CORAIN in many color .

is a rocky hill , and alot of industry see knife making as a hobby and there prefer to supply to potter then knife maker . just got my fire brick from potter . at $5USD a brick . ceramic fiber is still a problem cos there would not sell me in smaller amount . is $75 a roll i think is 7 meter or 10 meter .

anyway .

I totlaly Agree thermocouple is the fast answer and i will and must go that direction as i progress .

i am merely trying to explore ways to enhance knowledge of knife making . i intent to teach local Thai how to make knife once i refine my craft .

Steel Supply is another problem . all this away .

:) i guess all the harder to make knife making possible for me the more is pushing me to make it possible , hope i can show some knife in a few weeks or moth to come .



------------------

temperature crayons or paint

This sound good . and is really one choice of passive way of telling what going on . thanks .

-------------------

I am also thinking how to build my forge so it fire up evenly . i rea dup about a GAs forge and how not to use direct fire on the steel . i am thinking to use a block to regulate the heat since fire can reach 1000C - 1300C where i need only 800C . i was thinking using a channel Block to reduce the Size of the chamber in a forge i am doing to control it . just an idea. :) is all part of the fun .
Thanks in advance for all the great advice :)

keep it going
sharpen your knowledge
Gabaski
 
Purchase your thermocouples on ebay. Many come from China, anyway. Even with international shipping ,one should cost less than $50USD. A PID should cost about the same.
 
i will be searching on that is not really easy to make Payment from thailand also :P


i saw a website call Omega.com with load of stuff . but cos is so large i got no idea what i need .

Stacy i will be looking at ebay and thanks for the super advice :)

at one point i was thinking to go Knife swap . to swap knife i made for stuff that i needs from state .


just an idea :) but only possible when i am sure i am making Good knife.
 
Cool , thanks for the great link and info .

i am also reading up on glass , ceramic as well as other passive way to handle heat .

i am still worrying about stable heat and uniform heat in the forge i am going to build .

----------

any good conductor that can be use as a passive form of heat delay or heat stabilizer without losing much .

when i was a kid i recall some kinda wire plate that you place on top of cooker to stabilize the heat so there is no flame just red hot wire . is it possible to make one like that for heating inside the oven .. and also how to control it .

sorry for asking so much watson Question ,
i am just trying to solve the crime of not knowing :)

Sharpen your knowledge
Gabaski
 
Gabaski said:
. The last time i try to find a Knife maker IN thailand , he is selling his KMG clone for like $2500USD . without the Motor and VFC .

So i end up making my Own KMG clone at the local CNC and miller . now i got it Done after 1 month . . even got a OMRON VFC after placing special order with OMRON THAILAND and wait for 3 week for them to get it from japan .

Here in Thailand i think their trying to Guard their commercial secret by not sharing . since most Thai do not read English and the few who do prefer to keep it a huge secret .

only a hand full of guys is willing to share .

Took me 1 month to contact DUpont just to get hold of CORAIN . imagine that . but i did secure supply of CORAIN in many color .

is a rocky hill , and alot of industry see knife making as a hobby and there prefer to supply to potter then knife maker . just got my fire brick from potter . at $5USD a brick . ceramic fiber is still a problem cos there would not sell me in smaller amount . is $75 a roll i think is 7 meter or 10 meter .

anyway .

I totlaly Agree thermocouple is the fast answer and i will and must go that direction as i progress .

i am merely trying to explore ways to enhance knowledge of knife making . i intent to teach local Thai how to make knife once i refine my craft .

Steel Supply is another problem . all this away .

:) i guess all the harder to make knife making possible for me the more is pushing me to make it possible , hope i can show some knife in a few weeks or moth to come .



------------------

temperature crayons or paint

This sound good . and is really one choice of passive way of telling what going on . thanks .

-------------------

I am also thinking how to build my forge so it fire up evenly . i rea dup about a GAs forge and how not to use direct fire on the steel . i am thinking to use a block to regulate the heat since fire can reach 1000C - 1300C where i need only 800C . i was thinking using a channel Block to reduce the Size of the chamber in a forge i am doing to control it . just an idea. :) is all part of the fun .
Thanks in advance for all the great advice :)

keep it going
sharpen your knowledge
Gabaski
Click to expand...


I used to import Dozier Belt Grinder to Thaikland, thge freight cost paid to FEDX was US$ 1750.- and the same amount were subject to import tax computation.

Your local m/c maker charge you resonable.because the price for Mitsubishi 3 horse power motor only US$ 140.-
 
I used to import Dozier Belt Grinder to Thaikland, thge freight cost paid to FEDX was US$ 1750.- and the same amount were subject to import tax computation.

Your local m/c maker charge you resonable.because the price for Mitsubishi 3 horse power motor only US$ 140.-
Click to expand...

:) Thanks Dick for the rely , just my Rant on how hard to get stuff done in Thailand , but i do understand the price is also due to the lack of market and maker here to use the product to be able to push the price down :)

:) Hope we as knife maker can create a market for knife making supply :)
 
try to test on Color Visual today , but fail , cos it started to rain alf way while i was testing . bad weather .

i was thinking is it possible to drop some kinda salt drop on the knife . a few time on the holder part to tets if it had reach 800C . since salt melt at 800C if we test it a few time using Color Visual .

when is close to 760C and as the heat go up as test it a few time base on color and Salt melting Point .. hmm. might just be able to get a very close 800C but of cos need more testing to proof it .
 
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