How close is too close?

[Sep]

By adding the element of a $4 knock off, you're creating a mindset that this knife can be had for a low price. Thus you are devaluing the brand.

You said that as long as "it's clearly identified as a knockoff of a particular brand, and the price & quality is far enough below the original". How will people outside of the knife community know what quality is if they only handle knockoffs? By illegally copying certain designs and mechanisms you are bluring the lines between the genuine product and a worthless copy.

How can knockoff's be clearly defined? As I said, except for the price, the pictures of the Subcom looked very close to the original. You would have to have an intimate, almost hands on knowledge of the original to spot the slight clip and jimping difference.

Knockoff's are designed to closely resemble, or even out right copy, higher end brands and won't ever come with a "This is a knockoff designed to increase brand recognition" stamp. People outside of the community might not notice that it is not a genuine product. Look at some of the CRKT knockoffs. Far lower in quality then the original, and now, a lot of non knife people I talk to think CRKT is shit for knives. You're increasing brand recognition while devaluing the brand at the same time. :thumbdn:

If you read my original post, you'll see that I very clearly set up certain caveats. I'm going to repeat it for your benefit.

* People who buy the extremely cheap copy is very unlikely to buy the original at 10X the price, so the original loses no market.
* Availability of cheap knockoffs, as long as people know they're knockoffs, popularizes the original product. Think of it as a 3D advertising.
* As knockoff buyers earn more money, they are very likely to buy the original. This is because they love the design, and by buying the original they're confirming that they have "arrived".

What you need to fear is mid range copies sold at a quarter to a half of the original price. At this price point it's no longer a knockoff: it's a very close counterfeit where only experts can tell the difference. This one will eat your market.

 

[Sep]

If the cheap knock-offs were only bought by people who wouldn't look at the originals because of the price, then why do the knock-off artists need to copy the originals so closely? Look at Frost knives in the Smokey Mountain catalog and you will see cheap knives that each have their own unique fantasy design elements. They are selling to people who don't know the major brands, so the need to look like them doesn't exist.

Knock-offs that closely copy legitimate original designs are deliberately fraudulent. Buying them is supporting theft of intellectual property.

First, I never said anything about their action being right, or even legal. I couldn't care less if all knock off products are destroyed and their manufacturers are sued down to their pants. I have absolutely no problem with that, because I only buy genuine products. I'm simply saying that to a certain degree and in certain cases fakes actually help sell the genuines.

Cheap manufacturers produce knockoffs because the original version is a successful product that sells well. They can come up with their own design, but they don't know which one of those designs (if any) will sell. By not having to eat the cost of failed designs, they can sell even cheaper and or maximize their profit.

Again, as long as people know they're buying a knockoff and the quality is far below the original, IMHO it serves as a promotional tool.

 

[mdauben]

The original is losing market regardless. If I saw a Boker Subcom on ebay for $35, I'd think it's original. I recently bought a "Subcom" from "Boker" for about $4 shipped. Arrived late last week straight from China.

Making a near duplicate and atempting to pass it off as an original is, I think, a totally different mater. That is out-and-out fraud and certainly does take money out of the original makers pocket, as well as tarnishing the company's reputation.

I think the real question is when some custom or high-end production maker creates a new knife design that becomes very popular. Next, some bargin brand comes out with a similar knife under their own brand name, just how "similar" does it have to be before changes from "following a marketing trend" to "out-and-out design theft"?

Also, if that custom or high-end production maker is selling their knife for $200+ dollars, and the copy-cat is selling for $40, is the original maker really losing any profits? It seems unlikely that anyone who would have been willing to pay $200+ for the original will suddenly say "hey! I can get this POS knock-off for only $40! I'm going with the cheapo!"

 

[sharkattacksw]

The Original post makes me wonder what craptastic Chinese knockoff factory he represents.

Funny you say that. It's exactly what I was thinking.

 

[sharpguytoo]

To the point of the OP question, I think that "too close" is when the item cant be distinguished from the original. It is hard to judge intent. Rember the RR grill for your VW beetle? They sued, but I'm willing to bet that no body was actuallly fooled bythat vehicle. How about a genuine out of the box idea such as the lock design or the spider hole? Is a square/oval/hex/birds eye cutout a direct rip off? Hell yes. Is it supposed to make me think of the original-maybe, but it is not there to decieve, just to open the blade. I think that there will always be somebody out there ready to by a cheaper product and the key is if the marketing is tilted towards deception. Intelectual property is hard to defend so I try not to buy "knockoffs' but you gotta agree that the CRKT colaberations of some customs is a good way to try say a razel without spending a bundle for a unique design you may hate. Not everybody can afford a Lexus but theymanage to make a "jeep" that you wouldn't mistake for the original not by "coping" the sheetmetal but by reworking the basic package in thier own way. YMMV

 

[Josh K]

Making a near duplicate and atempting to pass it off as an original is, I think, a totally different mater. That is out-and-out fraud and certainly does take money out of the original makers pocket, as well as tarnishing the company's reputation.

I think the real question is when some custom or high-end production maker creates a new knife design that becomes very popular. Next, some bargin brand comes out with a similar knife under their own brand name, just how "similar" does it have to be before changes from "following a marketing trend" to "out-and-out design theft"?

Also, if that custom or high-end production maker is selling their knife for $200+ dollars, and the copy-cat is selling for $40, is the original maker really losing any profits? It seems unlikely that anyone who would have been willing to pay $200+ for the original will suddenly say "hey! I can get this POS knock-off for only $40! I'm going with the cheapo!"

What "bargin brand"? I don't think it's custom makers that have to worry about their products being cloned, I think it's production companies that produce several highly recognizable knives that are being knocked off en masse.

If you read my original post, you'll see that I very clearly set up certain caveats. I'm going to repeat it for your benefit.

I read that. What you misunderstood is what Esav clarified. Show me a knockoff that is not a direct copy of another knife, that simply borrowed parts of the design. Knock off's are just that, knock offs.

* People who buy the extremely cheap copy is very unlikely to buy the original at 10X the price, so the original loses no market. This is not a valid point because regardless the original is loosing market to another competitor, and that competitor has a high likelyhood of trashing that brands image.
* Availability of cheap knockoffs, as long as people know they're knockoffs, popularizes the original product. Think of it as a 3D advertising. Not many people know that they are knock offs.
* As knockoff buyers earn more money, they are very likely to buy the original. This is because they love the design, and by buying the original they're confirming that they have "arrived". I thought they were too cheap to buy the original? If they love the knocked off design, then why pay more for more of the same?

 

[PatriotDan]

DO NOT discuss the other posters. Discuss the knives and the business practices.

.....

 

[Josh K]

If you read my original post, you'll see that I very clearly set up certain caveats. I'm going to repeat it for your benefit.

I'd also like to add that you cannot put "caveats" on knockoffs. If the design is so similar as to induce doubt, it's fraudulent use of another design. Look at what S&W is doing to several Strider designs.

 

[waterdogs]

You can pretty much bet that any decent, saleable product will be on its way to China 20 minutes after it is released for sale, for the purpose of knocking off the original. With all the new factories that have been built there in the last 10 or 15 years, the level of quality & sophistication of the knockoffs has come way up....take for instance ladie`s handbags....my wife has owned a couple of real Louis Vuitton bags, so we know what the real ones look like. At a flea market, we were looking at the LV knockoffs at a stand run by Chinese (of course), and after examining them closely, I had to admit, the copies were pretty much indistinguishable from the real item....fabric, trim, zippers, lining, strap, coloring,labels, were dead on....scary....and $45 versus $750 for a real one.
I have a CRKT Crawford-Kasper Large Folder which is made in Taiwan....it`s a big, beefy knife with excellent build quality, good fit & finish, takes a good edge....if it didn`t say "Taiwan" on the blade, it would easily fit right in with more expensive "brand names".