How come everyone likes framelocks and nobody like linerlocks?

I think James hit it on the head. The liner and frame lock both seem plenty strong and most I've looked at even held up to spine whacks pretty well. Many times they performed better than lock backs for this but they don't do as well for sideways or lateral torques for a lot of guys that test them and this is the reason they are not liked much.

The frame lock has more mass usually and it therefore theoretically has more surface on the blade that needs to slide off the blade from a side torque in order for the blade to come free or the lock to defeat. In other words even if the frame lock slid a little there should still be plenty of lock behind the blade yet vs a thinner liner lock that can't move much before its below the needed metal there to keep the blade secure. So, with your hand there preventing the lock from moving on a frame lock, (something its prevented from doing with a liner lock because the lock side handle scale is in the way) the frame lock is far more trustworthy under those kind of torques or 'white knuckling' as James mentioned.

The only exceptions with liner lock folders that I've noted to this rule of the frame lock being more reliable are with ones built like this one I'm showing a pic of. Note how Bob Terzuola, the maker of this knife, did the lock side handle scale. You might also note that this is a left handed knife with the lock reversed on it. This knife belongs to a forum member. He sent it to me a while back for that low rider clip on it that I made. You can see that Bob has done a cut out of the lock side handle scale exposing the lock. In many ways this lock up, although technically a liner lock, has all the advantages of the frame lock and as a result of this method of doing the handle scale it makes the knife more trustworthy under heavy loads.

After noting this technique I have noticed other makers doing this also on at least some of their liner lock models. Its a good idea if you ask me. Putting the lock out there even more may make it that much better. Some of the other good ones seem to be those that are made to stick up higher but it seems to me the more lock you can get your hand behind the better it will be for reliability. I would imagine that it would be a simple matter to do a cut out like this on the handle scale on just about any old liner lock that you could get the lock side handle off of to make the knife just a bit more reliable for you.

STR
 
They both work fine, as you mentioned the thickness of the locking bar being the only difference. if either of them are a strider your pretty much safe from breaking it unless a catastrophical failure occurs or your trying to do pull ups on it.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
AM, you definitely have some odd results sometimes! The above is one of them: in my experience and in years of reading tests from other people, liner locks almost never "fail towards lockup", especially in the case of spine whack tests; instead, they slide off the tang back to unlocked, which is the single biggest problem with liner lock reliability.
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maybe during spinewhacking the knife made contact more towards the pivot,or behind it causing the blade to rock in the other direction,allowing the lock to travel farther than usual?
 
Hmm...interesting hypothesis. But you'd think one of the fourty or so times I spinewhacked the test knife the opposite would have happened, merely by chance....maybe it did and the lock wear was so far it didn't slip off...

However, this, to me, is a case of something constant, not chance...there is a property or combination of properties to the test knife that make it so it fails toward the other side every time.
 
Artfully Martial said:
Hmm...interesting hypothesis. But you'd think one of the fourty or so times I spinewhacked the test knife the opposite would have happened, merely by chance....maybe it did and the lock wear was so far it didn't slip off...

However, this, to me, is a case of something constant, not chance...there is a property or combination of properties to the test knife that make it so it fails toward the other side every time.
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sorry i didn't mean to sound like i doubted your methods. it just seems odd that the lock would overengage when the tang is curved in a way that would seem guide the liner in the other direction. it would definately be interesting to find out what is causing it.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
I think flexing is important, but you shouldn't be focusing solely on the lockbar. The tendency of washers to compress and handles to flex (even a tiny amount) is also interesting, especially in the case of torquing.
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Joe, after I spent a little time with one of Audra's Aloha Cowgirls, I spent some time the following year talking with the Drapers in Eugene. They were talking about spinewhack failures and framelocks, as well as excessive travel of the lockbar during the "flipping" motion on flipper models... Most of what they found to be the problem was that the WHOLE frame could flex enough under both flipping and spinewhack testing that failures of the lock or over travel of the lock bar could happen.

Mike uses a simple solution to avoid both problems - he places the screws holding the whole thing together in a different arrangement than most. Once he had eliminated frame flex from the equation, both he and Audra experienced far less occurances of failure of the lockbar and overtravel of the locking bar.

Still, under very specific instances, usually grip induced, the bar can still become disengaged under rotational torque as in encountering resistance in a stiff medium and the human inclination to twist the object to pull it out...
 
Oh no, I didn't think you were doubting my methods, not in the least. I hope I didn't sound harsh in return, I honestly didn't mean anything by it.

In any case, my methods are everyone's to find problematic. We have a problem, so let's figure out what exactly is going wrong and fix it. If my methods don't eventually result in a solution, then I definitely need to reevaluate my position. Just trying to figure it out.
 
I wont buy either one anymore! Check my post "Field & Stream Knife" under general blade discussion.
 
Could someone explain to me why people who manufacter liner locks will make them thin enough to get jammed in between the tang and scale like Artfully Martial described? This has happened to me with 3 knives, this along with grip issues and torquing release has cause me to simply avoid framelocks and liner locks completely. This seems like a poor design choice though, what reason is there to make a liner that could get jammed there? Seems like a safety flaw to me.
 
Artfully Martial said:
Oh no, I didn't think you were doubting my methods, not in the least. I hope I didn't sound harsh in return, I honestly didn't mean anything by it.

In any case, my methods are everyone's to find problematic. We have a problem, so let's figure out what exactly is going wrong and fix it. If my methods don't eventually result in a solution, then I definitely need to reevaluate my position. Just trying to figure it out.
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no you didn't sound harsh..i thought maybe i sounded like a smart ass..with text it's hard to tell. maybe as the spine is hit on a hard surface the lock bar is bending and when the pressure from the hit is relieved (for a fraction of a sec.) it is allowing enough room to over engage?
 
a2d2 said:
maybe as the spine is hit on a hard surface the lock bar is bending and when the pressure from the hit is relieved (for a fraction of a sec.) it is allowing enough room to over engage?
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From personal experience, when I've had a failure on a linerlock while doing the spinewhack test, the locking bar simply disengaged, not over engaged. Now, when using a flipping motion, with or without a flipper, I've had the liner lock bar on a couple of knives over engage, almost to the point it couldn't be disengaged with out sticking something in there to pry it back over. However, I've never experienced one actully wedging between the opposite liner and blade tang.
Hope that makes sense? :o Anyway, three factors were suggested to explain this: 1) improper spring tension (too much spring or not enough in the lock bar;) 2) Frame flex; 3) "galling," or the effect friction creates between two different metals, ie; the blade steel and the liner metal... Saw that on a liner lock made of titanium acting on a 52100 blade...
 
joeshredd said:
Mike uses a simple solution to avoid both problems - he places the screws holding the whole thing together in a different arrangement than most. Once he had eliminated frame flex from the equation, both he and Audra experienced far less occurances of failure of the lockbar and overtravel of the locking bar.
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I know a maker who, aside from the screws holding the works together, also puts in a few pins. This seems to really strengthen the frame and keep it aligned, and also seems to make a real difference. I think the Drapers have it right in seeking to minimize frame flexing.

Joe
 
Personally I feel that anyone making a liner lock thin enough to allow it to get between the blade and the handle should place a larger washer on the non lock side that sticks out far enough to prevent the lock from even getting into that space in the first place. How much more would that cost? Jeeze.

STR
 
Wow, talk about a can of worms. Since I respect everyone's opinion here I"ll just state that I have never experienced and problems with my liner locks, my Military, M16, or Rat 1. They work for me and for that reason I like them and trust them for what I use my knives for. I like liner locks. Now I feel better.:)
 
Joe Talmadge said:
I know a maker who, aside from the screws holding the works together, also puts in a few pins. This seems to really strengthen the frame and keep it aligned, and also seems to make a real difference. I think the Drapers have it right in seeking to minimize frame flexing.

Joe
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:thumbup:
Yup, and most peole wouldn't realize the frame actually can flex, too... but since I had that pointed out to me, I've since noticed one can twist many frames and note some flex in the frame!

IUKE12 - hey, simply find one that you feel comfortable with, and under 99.9% of the time (ie; ordinary usage! ;) ) you won't ever encounter this problem... It's just that some of us simply try to induce failure... well, okay, I didn't, but it was interesting to find out they CAN fail occasionally, and then it's just as fun to try and figure out why it happens... as it is, I can say it's only happened on two knives I've handled... :D
 
I haven't personally had the problem of it getting stuck in the other side in my personal knives. The ball bearing detent hits the opposing side of the handle in the only one that has shown wear, the M16, and thus prevents it from getting stuck.

My nephew bought an M-Tech that locked up fine if opened slowly. However, I gave it a good thumbstud flick and the lockbar did get stuck inbetween the tang and handle...causing me to force it out with a metal spoon handle...
 
It is strange that frame flex is being looked at.

One of my reliable liner-locks is a Spyderco Military. It flexes, yet holds.

I understand the rational of frame stiffness improving the lock reliability, BTW.
 
orthogonal1 said:
It is strange that frame flex is being looked at.

One of my reliable liner-locks is a Spyderco Military. It flexes, yet holds.

I understand the rational of frame stiffness improving the lock reliability, BTW.
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For me, the lesson here is that the liner lock is deceptively complex, despite the surface simplicity. Small changes make the difference between reliable or not. It's difficult to get consistency. It's no wonder that no other format has such reliability problems -- it's difficult to get right, and we may not even be sure what "right" is.
 
STR said:
Personally I feel that anyone making a liner lock thin enough to allow it to get between the blade and the handle should place a larger washer on the non lock side that sticks out far enough to prevent the lock from even getting into that space in the first place. How much more would that cost? Jeeze.

STR
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Indeed. It's a design flaw in my eyes, one that could be a safety issue if the knife fails. It makes absolutely no sense to leave the gap there to me.
 
No and its an easy fix too. You see Buck using a washer that prevents the lock from leaving the blade in their 880 and 881 Strider/Buck line and its not even needed in that thicker lock model so why can't they and other companies use them in everything? For that matter how expensive would it be to just use a slightly bigger diameter nylon washer on the non lock side. It could still be round and do the job to fill the space and double as a lock stop.

STR
 
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