How different is Case's carbon steel vs the CV?

[mbkr]

As previously discussed elsewhere, Case states that CS is 1095.

The Case Edge – Past, Present & Future

Throughout more than one hundred years of history, the Case name has become synonymous with reliable blades which are individually honed by the hands of skilled artisans. During that time, Case has principally used two types of steel to make our blades. These include our original Chrome Vanadium...

caseknives.com

 

[Will Power]

Tend to agree with both sides to this 'argument' (It's not 'negativity' to discuss peoples' points of view or experiences)

Most pocket-knives on this part of the forum are subject to fairly light tasks and as such CASE cv-carbon or ss is adequate for use. However, why does CASE have to be so furtive and secretive about their actual steels ? It is not an impressive behaviour and could lead to suspicion.

Also true that many tradesmen carry appalling knives that they have no idea or intention of sharpening. Think also about kitchen knives...and this can include the knives of quite a few 'chefs'

I like to KNOW what steel the knife is made of, it allows choice and to evaluate the quality/usefulness. Lionsteel & Viper Modern Traditional use M390 and it really does stay sharp a very long time, I like to see D2 on Queen's blades, Sandvik, 154, A2, etc etc. The fact that CASE doesn't seem to think it's even necessary to state the real content of its knives means that they might vary & that they don't think it important for their clientele. Others see it otherwise.

 

[mbkr]

Tend to agree with both sides to this 'argument' (It's not 'negativity' to discuss peoples' points of view or experiences)

Most pocket-knives on this part of the forum are subject to fairly light tasks and as such CASE cv-carbon or ss is adequate for use. However, why does CASE have to be so furtive and secretive about their actual steels ? It is not an impressive behaviour and could lead to suspicion.

Also true that many tradesmen carry appalling knives that they have no idea or intention of sharpening. Think also about kitchen knives...and this can include the knives of quite a few 'chefs'

I like to KNOW what steel the knife is made of, it allows choice and to evaluate the quality/usefulness. Lionsteel & Viper Modern Traditional use M390 and it really does stay sharp a very long time, I like to see D2 on Queen's blades, Sandvik, 154, A2, etc etc. The fact that CASE doesn't seem to think it's even necessary to state the real content of its knives means that they might vary & that they don't think it important for their clientele. Others see it otherwise.

As I posted immediately above, there is no mystery with the CS.
Tru-Sharp...

 

[Will Power]

OK fair enough.

But in the recent past they've always been cagey about what CV actually is.

When you buy a Buck you know what their stainless really is.

 

[calm]

possibly different taste

 

[jc57]

For some reference material, zknives.com lists info about some of Case's trade-named steels:

Latrobe Case Tru-Sharp Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36

Crucible Case CV Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36

Case themselves provides the following information:

The Case Edge – Past, Present & Future

Throughout more than one hundred years of history, the Case name has become synonymous with reliable blades which are individually honed by the hands of skilled artisans. During that time, Case has principally used two types of steel to make our blades. These include our original Chrome Vanadium...

caseknives.com

I don't have any personal experience with their newer Carbon Steel 1095 offerings. I own and frequently use their CV and Tru-Sharp steel knives and find them quite suitable to my needs. Others may have a different opinion or experience.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I'm somebody who doesn't really care what it is, because their blades always perform as I'm used to.

 

[JM2]

I don’t really care what it is either. My evaluation is on performance in hand. You give me a mystery metal knife and let me sharpen it and whittle a spell, I can tell ya if it’s stainless or carbon, and wether or not it’s good steel or not. And give a close estimation of hardness and probably variety. The number associated with it is just a reference so you can buy or avoid similar in the future.

In my own use of cases cv and SS, and schrade and GEC 1095, I don’t see much difference in use. The cv and 1095 holds an edge slightly longer but sharpens much easier than stainless. But I don’t see GEC 1095 being superior to schrade USA. It’s harder. And thus harder to sharpen. But it doesn’t hold the edge really any longer as a result. Frankly, my favorite to work with of what I mentioned is schrade USA 1095. It sharpens easy and holds an edge and gets the keenness needed.

 

[tongueriver]

I can't speak to the original post questioin; I just don't know. However I can't help interject something which I believe to be fact:
All knife steel, with extremely rare exceptions is "carbon" steel (actually "high carbon" steel). This includes all the stainless types. The addition of carbon to iron is what creates steel. For all regularly used stainless knife steels, the removal of carbon would create a metal worthless for cutlery. The ubiquitous use of the term "carbon steel," is, in general, misleading.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I'm less concerned about what Case calls their 'carbon steel' - be it either CV or 1095 - and more influenced by what they do with it, in terms of sourcing a pure version of the steel (for fewer defects) and heat-treating the steel after the fact. It has 'clicked' in my mind many times over the last few years, that the purity of the steel and the heat treat will make the greater difference in edge fineness and edge-holding. I say this, because one of the best examples of 1095 I've seen is from Schrade USA - and one of the absolute worst examples of 1095 came from another maker (to be unnamed). Each behaved radically differently, in spite of both of them being called '1095'.

Schrade USA was known to treat their 1095 to somewhere near or even above 60 HRC - but their blades still retained a beautiful springy temper and were also ground very thin. The result were blades that were both very easy to sharpen on simple stones and still had great edge-holding. The worst example of 1095 I've seen was in a knife that showed edge-rolling under pressure from the edge of my thumbnail, after many resharpenings. I realized after comparing these two, it doesn't particularly matter what the source steel is called. It's mostly about the quality of manufacture & execution of heat treat, after the fact. I'd commented about that disparity in the quality of 1095 years ago here on the forum and received a reply from an experienced maker explaining that 1095 is known to vary widely in quality at manufacture, due to big differences in purity at least. So-called '1095' is a recipe that's been replicated by countless foundries for decades, and each different producer can introduce a lot of quality differences, either good or bad. And then that raw steel goes to thousands of different uses and manufacturers with predictably 'unpredictable' results as well.

Same could be said for 420HC - Both Case and Buck Knives have done well with it for many of the same reasons, resulting in blades that take a fine edge due to good purity, good heat treat and nicely thin grinds. Case similarly did very well with their CV - and I'm sure it's for the same reasons. But others may not do so well with the same as-named steel.

So to me, it really doesn't matter if a maker says they're going to use 'CV', '1095', '420HC' or something else - it's still an unknown variable by the name alone. I take it as a given that the result always depends on much more than that, in terms of what they do with it once they have the raw material in their own house.

 

[Lesknife]

As I posted immediately above, there is no mystery with the CS.
Tru-Sharp...

That depends on who you ask at case. Either it’s someone who doesn’t know crap or they are not being honest. I’ve got different answers from the reps at case and if they don’t know they should revert to someone who does. I can get a good keen edge on a case knife, no wire or burr, but it doesn’t keep that keen edge. It usually wears rounded off or curls the edge on anything more than very light duty. My Buck knives in 420hc don’t do that in some heavy duty cutting nor the Camillus knives I’ve had in 440a.

 

[sitflyer]

I'm less concerned about what Case calls their 'carbon steel' - be it either CV or 1095 - and more influenced by what they do with it, in terms of sourcing a pure version of the steel (for fewer defects) and heat-treating the steel after the fact. It has 'clicked' in my mind many times over the last few years, that the purity of the steel and the heat treat will make the greater difference in edge fineness and edge-holding. I say this, because one of the best examples of 1095 I've seen is from Schrade USA - and one of the absolute worst examples of 1095 came from another maker (to be unnamed). Each behaved radically differently, in spite of both of them being called '1095'.

Schrade USA was known to treat their 1095 to somewhere near or even above 60 HRC - but their blades still retained a beautiful springy temper and were also ground very thin. The result were blades that were both very easy to sharpen on simple stones and still had great edge-holding. The worst example of 1095 I've seen was in a knife that showed edge-rolling under pressure from the edge of my thumbnail, after many resharpenings. I realized after comparing these two, it doesn't particularly matter what the source steel is called. It's mostly about the quality of manufacture & execution of heat treat, after the fact. I'd commented about that disparity in the quality of 1095 years ago here on the forum and received a reply from an experienced maker explaining that 1095 is known to vary widely in quality at manufacture, due to big differences in purity at least. So-called '1095' is a recipe that's been replicated by countless foundries for decades, and each different producer can introduce a lot of quality issues, either good or bad. And then that raw steel goes to thousands of different uses and manufacturers with predictably 'unpredictable' results as well.

Same could be said for 420HC - Both Case and Buck Knives have done well with it for many of the same reasons, resulting in blades that take a fine edge due to good purity, good heat treat and nicely thin grinds. Case similarly did very well with their CV - and I'm sure it's for the same reasons. But others may not do so well with the same as-named steel.

So to me, it really doesn't matter if a maker says they're going to use 'CV', '1095', '420HC' or something else - it's still an unknown variable by the name alone. I take it as a given that the result always depends on much more than that, in terms of what they do with it once they have the raw material in their own house.

Those Schrades were ground pretty thin, and take a wicked edge, the Uncle Henry's in SS were no slouches either, and both held there edges pretty good.

 

[mbkr]

That depends on who you ask at case. Either it’s someone who doesn’t know crap or they are not being honest. I’ve got different answers from the reps at case and if they don’t know they should revert to someone who does. I can get a good keen edge on a case knife, no wire or burr, but it doesn’t keep that keen edge. It usually wears rounded off or curls the edge on anything more than very light duty. My Buck knives in 420hc don’t do that in some heavy duty cutting nor the Camillus knives I’ve had in 440a.

The link I attached was to the Case website wherein they state that CS is 1095. Maybe they're lying. I don't know about that. I 've never found anything from Case where they state what Tru-Sharp is. They probably have, I just haven't seen it. I've seen a bunch of speculation on the interweb.

I'm less concerned about what Case calls their 'carbon steel' - be it either CV or 1095 - and more influenced by what they do with it, in terms of sourcing a pure version of the steel (for fewer defects) and heat-treating the steel after the fact. It has 'clicked' in my mind many times over the last few years, that the purity of the steel and the heat treat will make the greater difference in edge fineness and edge-holding. I say this, because one of the best examples of 1095 I've seen is from Schrade USA - and one of the absolute worst examples of 1095 came from another maker (to be unnamed). Each behaved radically differently, in spite of both of them being called '1095'.

Schrade USA was known to treat their 1095 to somewhere near or even above 60 HRC - but their blades still retained a beautiful springy temper and were also ground very thin. The result were blades that were both very easy to sharpen on simple stones and still had great edge-holding. The worst example of 1095 I've seen was in a knife that showed edge-rolling under pressure from the edge of my thumbnail, after many resharpenings. I realized after comparing these two, it doesn't particularly matter what the source steel is called. It's mostly about the quality of manufacture & execution of heat treat, after the fact. I'd commented about that disparity in the quality of 1095 years ago here on the forum and received a reply from an experienced maker explaining that 1095 is known to vary widely in quality at manufacture, due to big differences in purity at least. So-called '1095' is a recipe that's been replicated by countless foundries for decades, and each different producer can introduce a lot of quality issues, either good or bad. And then that raw steel goes to thousands of different uses and manufacturers with predictably 'unpredictable' results as well.

Same could be said for 420HC - Both Case and Buck Knives have done well with it for many of the same reasons, resulting in blades that take a fine edge due to good purity, good heat treat and nicely thin grinds. Case similarly did very well with their CV - and I'm sure it's for the same reasons. But others may not do so well with the same as-named steel.

So to me, it really doesn't matter if a maker says they're going to use 'CV', '1095', '420HC' or something else - it's still an unknown variable by the name alone. I take it as a given that the result always depends on much more than that, in terms of what they do with it once they have the raw material in their own house.

Lot of truth here. I'm a fan of Buck's 420HC. Buck seems to do a good job regardless of the steel they're using. A tribute to Paul Bos's skill. I'm a fan of old Schrades too.

 

[brownshoe]

You can spin it all a different way. Case CV, supposedly 1095 with vanadium, is switched to1095. It’s a cheaper lesser steel, and GEC has convinced loads of buyers that 1095 is cool. Marketing marries economy.

 

[Will Power]

Obsessed with Edges I'm dying of curiosity to know who the unarmed maker with not very good 1095 is I wonder....? No it can't be

You should tell it how it is, it's useful for others to compare experiences

Thanks, Will

 

[Will Power]

You can spin it all a different way. Case CV, supposedly 1095 with vanadium, is switched to1095. It’s a cheaper lesser steel, and GEC has convinced loads of buyers that 1095 is cool. Marketing marries economy.

Does kind of look like that....

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Obsessed with Edges I'm dying of curiosity to know who the unarmed maker with not very good 1095 is I wonder....? No it can't be

You should tell it how it is, it's useful for others to compare experiences

Thanks, Will

It was a Moore Maker produced by Bear & Sons, after Camillus closed up shop. Moore Maker-branded knives by B&S had other quality issues as well. I have a couple other of their knives - two of an identical pattern - that make me cringe every time I handle them, with identical fit & finish issues in both and another of the same pattern that had been produced by Camillus - that was a good one. And the Camillus' 1095 blades, BTW, were also much better in sharpening up.

 

[cbach8tw]

Maybe I am reading too much into it, but could the lack of clarity on Case’s part be just an individual who just didn’t care to know or could be something a little deeper, a sense of “meh” at Case that could be a harbinger of things to come? How is Case doing financially and business sense? Like when I go to the bank and ask a question, one person is very knowledgeable and ask the same question to another employee and they are unsure. May not be the bank is in trouble just need some more product knowledge and training for the employees. That also depends on the employee.

 

[JM2]

Maybe I am reading too much into it, but could the lack of clarity on Case’s part be just an individual who just didn’t care to know or could be something a little deeper, a sense of “meh” at Case that could be a harbinger of things to come? How is Case doing financially and business sense? Like when I go to the bank and ask a question, one person is very knowledgeable and ask the same question to another employee and they are unsure. May not be the bank is in trouble just need some more product knowledge and training for the employees. That also depends on the employee.

My guess would be this is the way it is. A large company hires folks to answer the phones. They might not have any idea about the product but they are good at appeasing the customers.