How do i get a good hamon on my 26C3 steel

mihaelx said:
I grinded way too thin than i should have, my bad
Click to expand...
Quenched at too low of a grit too... Those deep scratches are points where stress accumulates, makes them more prone to cracking, especially if you're doing a brine quench.
 
A.McPherson said:
Quenched at too low of a grit too... Those deep scratches are points where stress accumulates, makes them more prone to cracking, especially if you're doing a brine quench.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that info, before i hand sanded to 220 but i tought i might just skip it this time, major mistake, i guess you learn from mistakes
 
A.McPherson said:
Quenched at too low of a grit too... Those deep scratches are points where stress accumulates, makes them more prone to cracking, especially if you're doing a brine quench.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that's the issue here. In my experience when it's a scratch acting as a stress riser it's usually pretty clear. I think this looks like cracks from stress induced by the quench, and maybe the edge was overheated.
As Stacy said, if you insist on water quenching low hardenability steels you'll get some cracks. You can learn to do it somewhat more reliably, but it's just a risk of the process. If your goal is no cracks then get some O1 and canola oil, if you're goal is good hamons then you'll have to deal with some cracks.
 
Alex Topfer said:
I'm not sure that's the issue here. In my experience when it's a scratch acting as a stress riser it's usually pretty clear. I think this looks like cracks from stress induced by the quench, and maybe the edge was overheated.
As Stacy said, if you insist on water quenching low hardenability steels you'll get some cracks. You can learn to do it somewhat more reliably, but it's just a risk of the process. If your goal is no cracks then get some O1 and canola oil, if you're goal is good hamons then you'll have to deal with some cracks.
Click to expand...
I don't necessarily think that is the issue here either. However, if you're going to do a risky procedure, it's better if you eliminate potential problems and set yourself up for success.
 
I had typed that the grind was not the issue ... the quench was ... but deleted that part and made a shorter post. The cracks do not seem to propagate from grind lines. They are caused by the stress of structure changes causing the blade to try and curve in the quench and immediately after. It literally rips the brittle edge apart.

Even with Parks #50 I crack a hamon blade every now and then. In brine quenches it can be 50% or more. The results can be great, but the losses are heart wrenching.

Using a better choice of steel for a high intensity hamon in a brine quench is the answer. A low manganese W2 is a good and low-cost choice. Shopping around and requiring a cert sheet on the batch you will be purchasing from is what you need to do. Once yo find a suitable choice and test it with good results ... buy a LOT of it and refine your HT methods to get te best hamon and hard edge.
Hitachi White steel can take a brine quench.
What you want in any brine quench steel is .70-1.30% carbon and as little manganese as possible, preferably .3% or less, no other alloying, and as few trace elements as possible.
26C3 has lots of carbon (1.2-1.3%), a bit too much Mn (.5%), and an undesired .4% of Cr. The Si is from the manufacturing process and can't really be lowered much.

Why can't we get a simple low Mn high brine quench carbon steel???
Because the way steel is made the raw material is largely scrap steel. It already has the unwanted stuff in it, and it can't be removed affordably. Even making the steel from a virgin melt is tricky because some of the elements are needed for the process. I doubt all the knifemakers in the world who would do hamon blades would be a big enough market to make a single batch worthwhile.

If Larrin wants to cajole Niagra into making a batch of steel with .85% carbon and .2% manganese, I guarantee I and others would buy the whole batch. It was discussed with Crucible once before, but there was no interest by them. Hitachi won't ship sword/knife steel to the US. We tried to order 15,000 pounds once and they would not do it. We buy Hitachi shipped from Europe/UK, or order from another steel company's closest alloy.

You may note I don't call it a water quench. Water quench is the technical correct term, but the water is a brine solution of around 8%-10% salt. Many new smiths misunderstand the term and use plain water.
 
I want to buy W2 steel, but i just cant find any in Europe, like NOOOOOONEEE, i have scoured every damn site and no one has it
 
mihaelx said:
I want to buy W2 steel, but i just cant find any in Europe, like NOOOOOONEEE, i have scoured every damn site and no one has it
Click to expand...
Check out Jan Hafinec, a bladesmith from Slovakia. He is the hamon king, IMHO. He uses C105 carbon steel which is W1 if I recall correctly. He may be able to point you to where it can be obtained.

​

 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I had typed that the grind was not the issue ... the quench was ... but deleted that part and made a shorter post. The cracks do not seem to propagate from grind lines. They are caused by the stress of structure changes causing the blade to try and curve in the quench and immediately after. It literally rips the brittle edge apart.

Even with Parks #50 I crack a hamon blade every now and then. In brine quenches it can be 50% or more. The results can be great, but the losses are heart wrenching.

Using a better choice of steel for a high intensity hamon in a brine quench is the answer. A low manganese W2 is a good and low-cost choice. Shopping around and requiring a cert sheet on the batch you will be purchasing from is what you need to do. Once yo find a suitable choice and test it with good results ... buy a LOT of it and refine your HT methods to get te best hamon and hard edge.
Hitachi White steel can take a brine quench.
What you want in any brine quench steel is .70-1.30% carbon and as little manganese as possible, preferably .3% or less, no other alloying, and as few trace elements as possible.
26C3 has lots of carbon (1.2-1.3%), a bit too much Mn (.5%), and an undesired .4% of Cr. The Si is from the manufacturing process and can't really be lowered much.

Why can't we get a simple low Mn high brine quench carbon steel???
Because the way steel is made the raw material is largely scrap steel. It already has the unwanted stuff in it, and it can't be removed affordably. Even making the steel from a virgin melt is tricky because some of the elements are needed for the process. I doubt all the knifemakers in the world who would do hamon blades would be a big enough market to make a single batch worthwhile.

If Larrin wants to cajole Niagra into making a batch of steel with .85% carbon and .2% manganese, I guarantee I and others would buy the whole batch. It was discussed with Crucible once before, but there was no interest by them. Hitachi won't ship sword/knife steel to the US. We tried to order 15,000 pounds once and they would not do it. We buy Hitachi shipped from Europe/UK, or order from another steel company's closest alloy.

You may note I don't call it a water quench. Water quench is the technical correct term, but the water is a brine solution of around 8%-10% salt. Many new smiths misunderstand the term and use plain water.
Click to expand...
Just a note, NJSB was able to source an order of White paper and blue paper steel directly from Hitachi and has it available right now in the US.
 
Really? Well, I may have to give them a call. - Thanks Josh.

I checked it out. Good to know that they have some. It is in forging thicknesses, but that is good, not bad. They do have an error in their info. Blue (ao) paper steel is aogami, ao-ko, ao-ichi-ko (Blue # 1)). Blue #2 is ao-ni-ko. White (shiro) paper steel is shirogami, shiro-ko, shiro-ichi-ko (white # 1). Their site calls all three ao-ko, ao-ichi-ko.
I will contact them for spec sheets and point out the misprint.
 
Last edited:
Joshua Fisher said:
Just a note, NJSB was able to source an order of White paper and blue paper steel directly from Hitachi and has it available right now in the US.
Click to expand...
I saw this. I was looking for some more steel since there is no 26c3 in Australia at the moment, but importing stuff from the US is really expensive.
It's frustrating i can't order Hitachi steels from Japan, or buy some decent local blade steel given we produce about a third of all the iron ore

I got some W2 that's apparently 0.92% C and 0.21% Mn. I think i would like some more carbon and a more detailed specification in general, but this should make pretty patterns at least
 
.92%C and .21%Mn is a great steel for hamons. I would snap a bunch of that stuff up if I were you.
More carbon will do you no good, as all the carbon past .84% goes into some sort of carbide.
For a hamon, that's not what you want/need, so it is of no use.
 
update: i got new 2.2 mm 26C3 from GSF shop, along with satanite, i also managed to snatch ferric chloride from some dude in my country thru local marketplace, i hope it will be good then
 
Joshua Fisher said:
Just a note, NJSB was able to source an order of White paper and blue paper steel directly from Hitachi and has it available right now in the US.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for pointing this out, I haven’t ordered from them since I moved out of NJ. It was so nice being able to just make the 30-40min drive and pick up steel from their office. I was considering ordering a bar or two of white steel from dictum for my birthday or Christmas. I’ll cross check his pricing with dictum’s later.

One hamon I did from a section of white steel years ago has tainted my expectations in how clear and detailed I expect my hamons to be. I’ve been saving the rest of that bar for when I improve more but I’m not sure how much longer I can hold out lol
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top