How do waxed cotton balls work?

[bucketstove]

Just a quick update. I got a ball made of 1 tea candle to burn for 11 minutes but I couldnt get it to boil 8oz of water

I don't think its possible
according to wolframalpha 8 fl oz water = 236.6 grams , and to boil 236.6 grams of ice takes 602kJ or 570.6 BTU

vaseline and/or paraffin wax is 43.87 BTU/gram so 570.6 BTU/43.87 BTU/gram = 13.007 grams

I've seen tealights weigh from 9 to 12 grams of wax plus one gram for the aluminum cup, so while its possible for one tealight to contain the amount of energy required to boil 8floz water, energy transfer efficiency is never 100% ... and neither is combustion efficiency (smoke is wasted energy)

so if you used a windscreen (keep flame from blowing out ) and a pot skirt (increase energy transfer), and extend pot skirt into a pot hat ... for sake of arguments lets say you could reach an 50% energy transfer (optimistic but achievable)

this means you'd need at least 26 grams of wax ... about three tealights worth
one tealight cannot boil 8 fl oz of water you need three ( 3 * 9g = 27 g)

9g tealights can burn for 3-4 hours ... plenty of time to get some sticks/leaves to start burning

you might find this guys experiments interesting GEAR » Vasoline Cottonballs vs. solid fuel (esbit or Weber Lighter cubes) -- BackpackingLight.com Forums

 

[sideways]

I'll just leave this here. http://zenstoves.net/

 

[gadgetgeek]

In colder regions I've carried big "bush candles" for lack of a better term, a dixie cup full of wax and wood chips. But at that point we are well beyond a little bit of pocket tinder. The other thought there is that while I like purified water, its pretty low on my priority list as far as things to do. If I'm in a situation where dehydration is a factor, I'm gonna drink the water. deal with the consequence later. bucketstove, I won't check your math, it looks reasonable to me. The factor that you left out though is time. If its going to take 3 hours to put the heat from those candles into the water, thats 3 hours for heat to leave. Even if it didn't, 3 hours seems like time I could use for something else, as you pointed out.

 

[bucketstove]

In colder regions I've carried big "bush candles" for lack of a better term, a dixie cup full of wax and wood chips. But at that point we are well beyond a little bit of pocket tinder.

I find those funny, they use too much wax ; the cup is waterproof, the wood chips are dry , add a little paper on top and you don't need wax

bucketstove, I won't check your math, it looks reasonable to me. The factor that you left out though is time. If its going to take 3 hours to put the heat from those candles into the water, thats 3 hours for heat to leave. Even if it didn't, 3 hours seems like time I could use for something else, as you pointed out.

Yes, time depends on burn rate. More wicks means faster time .
Waldamir says he burned one tealight worth of wax in 11 minutes and didn't get a boil.
This wax stove could boil water in that time http://zenstoves.net/G-Micro.htm

If you're only planning on drinking the water, you don't need to boil it, simply going above the 149˚F water pasteurization temperature is enough.
pasteurization reduces energy required by at least 50% so that means 13.007 / 2 = 6.5035 grams .... so one tealight could probably pasteurize water

Whats interesting, is you can get WAPIs that weight about as much as a tealight , even as low as 5 grams

 

[gadgetgeek]

will pasteurization kill parasites and cysts? I know you don't need a rolling boil, but I would think that getting it right up there would be good. My impression that 140*f only limited bacterial growth, didn't necessarily kill everything.

 

[B34NS]

will pasteurization kill parasites and cysts? I know you don't need a rolling boil, but I would think that getting it right up there would be good. My impression that 140*f only limited bacterial growth, didn't necessarily kill everything.

If you cooked tainted meat at that temperature, you'd get sick. I'll just put it that way. 212 or don't even bother.

 

[bucketstove]

will pasteurization kill parasites and cysts? I know you don't need a rolling boil, but I would think that getting it right up there would be good. My impression that 140*f only limited bacterial growth, didn't necessarily kill everything.

If you cooked tainted meat at that temperature, you'd get sick. I'll just put it that way. 212 or don't even bother.

This is why I link links, so you can read for yourself this quotes the World Health Organization which says

Heating water to 65º C (149º F) will kill all germs, viruses, and parasites. This process is called pasteurization and its use for milk is well known though milk requires slightly different time temperature combinations.

The wikipedia says milk is heated to 72 °C (161 °F) for 15 seconds[/url]
Keep in mind this is water ... not as thick as milk or soup or stew ... no chunks of meat

Regarding meat, see IsItDoneYet.gov, the USDA lists the highest internal temperature for meats at 165 ºF. ... you can't guess the temperature, you have to use a thermometer.

This says cysts/parasites are inactivated at lower temperature before bacteria and viruses Enhancement of Solar Water Pasteurization with Reflectors

As temperatures reach 50°C or greater, pathogenic microbes are inactivated. The temperatures which cause approximately a 1-log decrease in viability within 1 min are 55°C for protozoan cysts; 60°C for E. coli, enteric bacteria, and rotavirus; and 65°C for hepatitis A virus (3, 5, 7-9, 16). When the WAPI wax melts at about 70°C, the cumulative lethal effect of heat will be greater than the heat ordinarily used to pasteurize milk, 15 s at 71.7°C or 62.7°C for 30 min. This is because of the gradual increase in temperature, often at least 30 min from 50 to 70°C, as well as the gradual cooling once the water is removed. In addition, the water at the bottom of the black jar is often 5 to 10°C cooler than the water at the top of the jar. Microbes in the upper portion will have been inactivated before those in the bottom portion, where the WAPI is located.

Risk of botulism? Boil food for 10 minutes and you're good

Because botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety.

I think CDC/USDA... knows more about botulism/bacteria/cysts than I do

 

[B34NS]

The not so old wilderness guides used to speak of 160F for 30 minutes, 185F for a few minutes and anything up to including rolling boil was a minute. Granted these guides generally cover protozoa, bacteria, and other paraites, they do not account for the relsiance of Cryptosporidium, which can only be killed by boiling for 1 minute. Water boils at lower temperatures in higher elevation, this has to be considered as well.

Here's the CDC's giude for backcountry water treatment: http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/pdf/drinking/Backcountry_Water_Treatment.pdf

Pasteurization is a process of preservation, not intended to kill all bacteria, there are good ones in the cooking process. Sterilization is what we're talking about with water. While yes you can turn some of these inactive, it's not as easy as just boiling your water in the field. Besides, who doesn't love a hot cup of coffee or tea on a cold morning.

 

[bucketstove]

The not so old wilderness guides used to speak of 160F for 30 minutes, 185F for a few minutes and anything up to including rolling boil was a minute. Granted these guides generally cover protozoa, bacteria, and other paraites, they do not account for the relsiance of Cryptosporidium, which can only be killed by boiling for 1 minute. Water boils at lower temperatures in higher elevation, this has to be considered as well.

Here's the CDC's giude for backcountry water treatment: http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/pdf/drinking/Backcountry_Water_Treatment.pdf

Pasteurization is a process of preservation, not intended to kill all bacteria, there are good ones in the cooking process. Sterilization is what we're talking about with water. While yes you can turn some of these inactive, it's not as easy as just boiling your water in the field. Besides, who doesn't love a hot cup of coffee or tea on a cold morning.

That PDF does not mention thermometers a piece of equipment necessary for pasteurization


Pasteurization does indeed kill all bacteria, the same as boiling does, thats the whole point of it

A search for "cryptosporidium pasteurization" finds Effect of pasteurization on infectivity of Cryptosporidium parvum oocysts in water and milk. which says (71.7 degrees C for 15 s) high-temperature--short-time pasteurization is sufficient

If having a thermometer and pasteurizing clear water doesn't make you feel good about drinking it,
A simple folded up tshirt/bandana makes a Cloth filter which will filter out cryptosporidium

 

[B34NS]

Pastuerization only has that effect on certain bacteria, not all, notwithstanding boiling, and still doesnt take care of most viruses and protozoa. One study on mice isn't enough to risk it in the field for humans, for me at least as well as the CDC. It still doesn't address the realities of cross contamination either, but those are inherently understood as the guide is for backcountry water sources. It says, you want to know if water is clean, boil it. By your argument, youre right, yea, it's killed, and then some.

I still don't see how any of this is realevant though as a treated cotton ball, by popular standards won't even come close to as optimum as fuel is, as apposed to trying to boil water with ignition/kindling sources.

 

[bucketstove]

Pastuerization only has that effect on certain bacteria, not all, notwithstanding boiling, and still doesnt take care of most viruses and protozoa. One study on mice isn't enough to risk it in the field for humans, for me at least as well as the CDC. It still doesn't address the realities of cross contamination either, but those are inherently understood as the guide is for backcountry water sources. It says, you want to know if water is clean, boil it. By your argument, youre right, yea, it's killed, and then some.

I still don't see how any of this is realevant though as a treated cotton ball, by popular standards won't even come close to as optimum as fuel is, as apposed to trying to boil water with ignition/kindling sources.

Can you cite your sources please Where do you get your information from?

 

[B34NS]

Already posted it, read through it, those suggestions about cobination treatment.

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/pdf/drinking/Backcountry_Water_Treatment.pdf

still don't see how it relates to treated cotton balls as a reliable method for boiling water in an emergency situation. Tehcnicalities and historical processes aside.

 

[bucketstove]

Already posted it, read through it, those suggestions about cobination treatment.

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/pdf/drinking/Backcountry_Water_Treatment.pdf

still don't see how it relates to treated cotton balls as a reliable method for boiling water in an emergency situation. Tehcnicalities and historical processes aside.

I did read that guide, its contains no references and it doesn't talk about

Pastuerization only has that effect on certain bacteria, not all, notwithstanding boiling, and still doesnt take care of most viruses and protozoa. One study on mice isn't enough to risk it in the field for humans, for me at least as well as the CDC.

pasteurization doesnt take care of most viruses and protozoa? Cite your sources please

 

[B34NS]

Read it again, at no point do they reccomend to pasteurize your water as a reliable means of sterilization.

They state:

In what way does the method of boiling water to 212F not cover what you're talking about? You can't over cook water, it just evaporates . I just don't think cotton balls treated will provide the same level of reliabliy that other methods and basic fire skills can provide.

 

[Hammer67]

They're intended to be used as a fire starter in an emergency but if for whatever reason I can't get a fire going I could still use them to boil water.

Huh? What part of fire STARTER are you not getting?

 

[bucketstove]

Read it again, at no point do they reccomend to pasteurize your water as a reliable means of sterilization.

They state:

In what way does the method of boiling water to 212F not cover what you're talking about? You can't over cook water, it just evaporates . I just don't think cotton balls treated will provide the same level of reliabliy that other methods and basic fire skills can provide.

Hmm, so because Backcountry_Water_Treatment.pdf doesn't mention pasteurization at all, you claim that "pasteurization doesnt take care of most viruses and protozoa"?

You can't make that claim based on Backcountry_Water_Treatment.pdf , it doesn't support that claim.

 

[B34NS]

Hmm, so because Backcountry_Water_Treatment.pdf doesn't mention pasteurization at all, you claim that "pasteurization doesnt take care of most viruses and protozoa"?

You can't make that claim based on Backcountry_Water_Treatment.pdf , it doesn't support that claim.

That's my point. They don't even mention pasteurization as a method in their "backcountry guide". So why even bring up pasteurization if it's not a reliable method in the field pertaining to the discussion started by this tread's OP? If it's better than boiling, how so?

 

[B34NS]

This is why I link links, so you can read for yourself this quotes the World Health Organization which says
The wikipedia says milk is heated to 72 °C (161 °F) for 15 seconds[/url]

WHO isn't mentioned in your link. CDC/WHO official emergency guides say boil it.

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/publications/2011/WHO_TN_05_Emergency_treatment_of_drinking_water_at_the_point_of_use.pdf?ua=1

When it comes to thermal processing in the filed, I don't think it practical to "pasteurize" ones water with cotton balls as a fuel source. The reason they say to boil it is if you don't have a means of measuring time and temperature accurately in the field, a rolling boil will tell you where it's at. Even at elevation. Those cotton balls could be better used as an ignition source to start a fire to boil water with.

 

[Codger_64]

I've tried to keep up with recommendations for backcountry water purification over the years and I mostly agree with the information about boiling water. However the latest I have seen reduces the time for boiling to one minute. Even that temp is well above the stated temperature for pasteurizing. But I can see where stated boil times might need to vary with altitudes.

 

[baldtaco-II]

On the pasteurize and sterilization thing:

Too stoned to care much right now, but it is my understanding that the very nature of “ pasteurized” means safe for human consumption [as far as stuff that can be killed with heat goes anyway] – As in, water need not be sterilized only pasteurized.