How do you get a hair splitting edge from a strop?

[Omega Leather Works]

With a V edge it all comes down to the shoulder as a last line of defense to protect the apex.

Bingo.

What works for me is to edge lead just until the edge starts to bite the leather, back off a couple of degrees and hold that angle.

My strops are soft but very thin vegetable tanned leather. The nap is very short, and you can apply as much pressure as you want without any negative impact *as long* as you get the angle right, which isn't rocket science. I also watch for light as the edge passes along the strop. I can tell by looking if the edge is being stropped or if there is too much pressure being applied to the edge. This comes with a little practice, and knowing your particular piece of equipment is key. If you handed me another strop I might not do as well.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Something to consider - your paper wheel IS a (loaded) strop. You could do more by hand, but if your technique with the wheels is good, why bother?

That's why I asked if his edges are polished. There's nothing wrong with being happy where you're at with your edge, but on my wood carving tools I see the benefit from polishing. I've tried a few different edges and the best (for me) is a very slight convex, with a mirror polish. I can get by with an acute flat bevel. Hell, one of my favorite knives is exactly this, but the cutting that is possible on a medium such as bass wood using the convex mirror is superior imo.

 

[OHALLUM]

RE: polished edges. My edges are polished, but just not mirror polished. They are quite shiny and look highly polished, but under magnification you can still see some faint scratches. My strop is a two sided strop from Stropman, and I have green compound from him on it. It is kept clean, and wiped down with a paper towel before each use. It is not completely saturated with compound, but enough to color the fibers about 80 %. There is some blackening from metal abrasion showing on it. When stropping on it, I probably abrade the edge too aggressively, causing what Knifenut1013 is describing.

The nap of the leather is relatively short. Most of my blades are slightly convexed as a flat V bevel is hard to do with the paper wheels. I am a believer in the strop, but as I posted earlier, my technique lacks what it takes to improve on what I am getting from the slotted (strop) wheel. Your technique of "riding" the shoulder may be the answer to my problem. I try to stay on the same angle as the bevel, but I am probably putting too much pressure on the actual apex and therefore dulling the edge. Time to practice and experiment some more using a different approach. The remark about barbers using a strop all these years makes a lot of sense. I have seen them use strops in years past, and most were working at it quite fast and almost without thought it seemed. A dying art for sure.

Blessings,

Omar

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Nevermind, off topic.

 

[Moses_3]

@Omar I have not looked for a bur very closely, I will try this. Also, I LOVE the edge I get from the EdgePro, I was just hoping to be able to maintain that level of sharpness without having to use the EdgePro every time.
@knifenut1013 So you cannot maintain a V-grind on a strop? I was led to believe that you can keep the edge very sharp with a strop, but not re-profile it. And, with knives that I have which came with a convex edge I still cannot sharpen them with the strop.
@SunsetFisherman I will check for a bur.
@Chris"Anagarika" So you cannot maintain a V-grind even on a strop with hard leather?
@HeavyHanded Yes, but it is not the finest push-cut, you could imagine the newsprint catching on some remaining 'teeth' on the edge. Regarding this "if there is ZERO change in how it throws back light compared to the rest of the strop surface then you can say there is no deflection" I was under the impression that how the strop's leather looked should change after each pass, like when you rub you have across corduroy and the nap shifts, is this not correct?
@Strigamort "edge lead just until the edge starts to bite the leather, back off a couple of degrees and hold that angle" this is what I have been trying to do, I think I am keeping the shoulder off of the leather... maybe I should put marker on the shoulder.

Thank you all for taking the time to give advice. Sorry I did not respond sooner, busy week.

 

[Jason B.]

Realize that maintaining with a strop also means you increase polish and decrease sharpness with each strop touch-up. It's not abrasive enough to correct even minor damage to a edge apex its just smoothing out rough spots. If you don't use your knife much then this might be a viable option but in most cases knives get used.

If you sharpen by hand then stropping with leather works great, the slight curve of the bevel is easily followed with the compression of the leather. When the edge bevel has been sharpened by a guide the very flat bevel needs a surface with no give. While it will still work to increase sharpness and polish it will also change the apex angle and round the apex to follow the compressing surface of a leather strop.

 

[Twindog]

If you can dull a knife with stropping, you can sharpen it. Stropping removes metal. You can remove the right metal and sharpen the edge or remove the wrong metal and dull it.

When sharpening a convex edge with a strop, the usual procedure is to use a soft backing, such as a mouse pad, and a relatively coarse grit. The give of the backing "likes" to follow the convex edge, but you still have to get the angle and pressure right.

When refining a V edge with a hard-backed leather strop, you are typically using a very fine abrasive, so you're not going to do a lot of sharpening, but you will refine the edge. The hard-backed leather has some give, but not a lot. If you keep the angle correct and your pressure light, you will definitely improve the sharpness of an already sharp knife.

The Wicked Edge system uses a hard-backed leather strop at an exact angle for a V edge. Unless you put too much pressure on it, you'll also improve the sharpness of an already sharp knife. But the abrasive used is so fine that you're not going to sharpen a dull knife unless you have a LOT of time. A lot of thought went into the WE system, and it shows that you can easily improve the sharpness of a V edge created with a guided system by stropping with hard-backed leather.

Freehand stropping is difficult. You can easily make an edge worse, but once you get the hang of it, it can really refine your sharp edge. If you're good, you can maintain the V edge as long as it doesn't get too dull. Many people have developed a technique where they strop a V edge, but turn the apex of the V edge into a slight convex edge that compensates for their using a too-steep angle or too much pressure.

But your technique has to be correct. You can also dull a convex edge with stropping.

 

[OHALLUM]

A question was asked about the polish on my knives after stropping them on the slotted wheel of my paper wheels. This is a poor picture of my blade that I modified for carving, by grinding the bevel down to a thinner profile. It however is an example of how the blades I sharpen wind up with a good polished bevel that is polished, but not mirror finished. I am still experimenting with my strop trying to improve the sharpness of my blades. So far, they wind up duller after stropping on my leather strop. It is all in my technique I am sure. Sorry about the poor picture, cheapo camera.



Blessings,

Omar

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Omar, are your wheels Razor Edge? I think that's the brand I'm thinking of anyway.

Man my wife is going to kill me when I tell her that I need those.

Are they good for short profile (edge to spine, say 1/4" and less) knives?

I still haven't been able to get my Drake as sharp as the Opinel, but I've got a few more things I can try.

I like the wheels (and Work Sharp for that matter), but I worry about my tiny blades and powered equipment.

 

[OHALLUM]

They are the Razor Sharp system that you can get from here: http://www.grizzly.com/products/G5937. These are the same ones that Richard J has and recommends. The buffer that I have came from Harbour Freight and cost about $40 on sale. I just posted a picture of it on the carving thread.

I have sharpened some knives that were about 3/8 inch wide on them with no trouble. You just need to be careful and use light pressure on the grit wheel. Best thing to do is get some cheap beater kitchen knives to practice on. RichardJ recommends practicing on some hack saw blades to get your procedure down and to experiment with. Not a bad idea, but I lucked out and found about 15 knives from Goodwill and another thrift shop for $1 each. It took me about 2 knives to get the hang of it, and then with practice I can now take a dull kitchen knife to shaving sharp in about 3 minutes or less.

Blessings,

Omar

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Razor Sharp, that's it, thank you.

I guess my biggest fear is quickly removing too much material, but going by looks alone, the wheels don't look too aggressive. Practice, as always, is great advice and hacksaw blades would probably be ideal.

Speaking of Richard, I haven't seen him around for a little bit. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong threads.

 

[stitchawl]

Realize that maintaining with a strop also means you increase polish and decrease sharpness with each strop touch-up. It's not abrasive enough to correct even minor damage to a edge apex its just smoothing out rough spots. If you don't use your knife much then this might be a viable option but in most cases knives get used.

With all due respect to your skills and abilities, I disagree with all three sentences completely. I have no difficulty sharpening a knife using a strop, nor to I round off or convex the bevels. My strops are almost as hard as wood, and there is virtually no compression deforming the leather when I strop. I use the word 'virtually' because any pressure on almost any surface will cause 'some' deformation if looked at with a high enough power microscope, but in the case of a good strop with proper technique. not enough to round off a bevel on a good steel blade.

If you can dull a knife with stropping, you can sharpen it. Stropping removes metal. You can remove the right metal and sharpen the edge or remove the wrong metal and dull it.

This is spot on. That's why barbers strop their razors, why woodworkers strop their chisels, and why I strop my knives. They get sharper than when I finish with the EdgePro. Noticeably sharper.

If people aren't getting sharper edges after stropping, there is a problem with either the technique used, the equipment (strop, compound, etc.) used, or a combination of both.

 

[OHALLUM]

Speaking of Richard, I haven't seen him around for a little bit. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong threads.

From what I heard, he fell and injured himself and was in the hospital for a while. Don't know if he is out yet or not. Apparently his injuries were pretty serious. There is a thread in the Community area about this.

Blessings,

Omar

 

[Omega Leather Works]

From what I heard, he fell and injured himself and was in the hospital for a while. Don't know if he is out yet or not. Apparently his injuries were pretty serious. There is a thread in the Community area about this.

Blessings,

Omar

Oh wow, I hadn't heard! Thanks for the heads up. Our emails kind of just stopped so I was a little worried if I'm honest. I'll give him a shout and a prayer.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

With all due respect to your skills and abilities, I disagree with all three sentences completely. I have no difficulty sharpening a knife using a strop, nor to I round off or convex the bevels. My strops are almost as hard as wood, and there is virtually no compression deforming the leather when I strop. I use the word 'virtually' because any pressure on almost any surface will cause 'some' deformation if looked at with a high enough power microscope, but in the case of a good strop with proper technique. not enough to round off a bevel on a good steel blade.



This is spot on. That's why barbers strop their razors, why woodworkers strop their chisels, and why I strop my knives. They get sharper than when I finish with the EdgePro. Noticeably sharper.

If people aren't getting sharper edges after stropping, there is a problem with either the technique used, the equipment (strop, compound, etc.) used, or a combination of both.

This is exactly what I wanted to say, but this guy says it better.

 

[Jason B.]

With all due respect to your skills and abilities, I disagree with all three sentences completely. I have no difficulty sharpening a knife using a strop, nor to I round off or convex the bevels. My strops are almost as hard as wood, and there is virtually no compression deforming the leather when I strop. I use the word 'virtually' because any pressure on almost any surface will cause 'some' deformation if looked at with a high enough power microscope, but in the case of a good strop with proper technique. not enough to round off a bevel on a good steel blade.



This is spot on. That's why barbers strop their razors, why woodworkers strop their chisels, and why I strop my knives. They get sharper than when I finish with the EdgePro. Noticeably sharper.

If people aren't getting sharper edges after stropping, there is a problem with either the technique used, the equipment (strop, compound, etc.) used, or a combination of both.

It does not matter what your technique is or if you have troubles with the method, years of "it worked for me" has no scientific backing and holds no value in this conversation.

I have stropped many edges produced by a guided system and they all got sharper... Hey, I guess it worked then.

 

[stitchawl]

It does not matter what your technique is or if you have troubles with the method, years of "it worked for me" has no scientific backing and holds no value in this conversation.

Perhaps you really meant is that it 'holds no value to you in this conversation. Because it certainly has value to me. My knives get sharper. And it does so because of technique and equipment working together. It's not rocket science. People have been stropping knives long before the first rocket was lighted with a burning piece of rope. I don't require 'scientific backing' to realize that a knife is sharper or not. I only need to see how it cuts, especially push cuts.

I have stropped many edges produced by a guided system and they all got sharper... Hey, I guess it worked then.

Huh? That's exactly the opposite of what you said in a previous post! Of course it worked. That's what stropping is supposed to do, and that's why we do it.

In post #26 you wrote; "Realize that maintaining with a strop also means you increase polish and decrease sharpness with each strop touch-up. It's not abrasive enough to correct even minor damage to a edge apex its just smoothing out rough spots."

I'm really getting confused here. First you say stropping decreases sharpness. Then you say; "I have stropped many edges produced by a guided system and they all got sharper." Sorry, maybe it's me and I just don't follow, but you don't seem to be making sense.

I strop my knives for the same reason so many people strop knives, chisels, skews, etc., etc., For the single reason that it results in a sharper edge. I don't do it to polish edges. I prefer to use a bathroom mirror for shaving. While I appreciate a polished edge, that is simply an adjunct benefit of stropping to a better edge.


Stitchawl

 

[Omega Leather Works]

I think maybe he's writing that as though it were the thought process of a person who used a guided system then stropped and found their edge to be sharper? If so, it appears that he's saying that the train of thought is incorrect. It isn't, of course...

I'm not sure what we are arguing here anymore. Stropping correctly will make an edge, any edge, sharper if done right.

 

[stitchawl]

Stropping correctly will make an edge, any edge, sharper if done right.

And THAT is the name of the tune! :thumbup:


Stitchawl

 

[IMightBeWrong]

I find stropping too much can actually round an edge. YMMV, but after finishing on 8000 grit I only do about 10 passes per side at most on green loaded strop. If I overdo it, then I get a tearing edge like what you mention. Without overdoing it I get an amazing edge.

By the way, what kind of knife are you using? What does the back bevel look like? Your edge could be good but if the blade gets thick too quickly behind the edge then it could also cause the tearing of the newspaper.