How do you know sharp?

B

BruceMack

Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
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I was using the SharpMaker earlier today to get the best possible edge on my Manly Peak. While it's my best edge I know it's not the best edge, invoking the adage "you don't know what you don't know". What I don't know is whether Josh of Razor Edge Knives or someone with comparable talent could amaze me with an edge from hell. I'm tempted to send my best effort to him and see what he returns. The problem is how would I compare as the knife would be away for weeks and my tactile memory insufficient? I may still send it.
Has anyone with decent sharpening skills acted on this question, and what did you find?
(to the moderator, I pose this as a general question but perhaps it should be in the maintenance forum)
 
You know when you know.

I can finally achieve a hair splitting semi-mirror edge, or a coarse shredding 600 grit edge.

Guided , crock sticks or freehand.

So. I know that I would never let another human being sharpen my knife .

That's when you know. Took about 18 years of practice. I'm 31 :)
 
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Keep your sharpest knife and send him a different one to be sharpened. Be prepared to pay, those beautiful mirrored edges ain't cheap.
 
With plenty of practice and patience, you can get an awesome edge on the Sharpmaker. Nothing wrong with sending it to Razor Edge though, I have read plenty of good reviews.
 
When you sharpen as many knives as Josh and some of the other folks that sharpen all the time, then yes you would know that your sharpening would produce the best edge. It's hard to duplicate the same edge from a maker/sharpener, unless you have the same equipment, the same ability and sharpen a bunch of knives.
Some people have a natural ability to put the best edge on a knife, others like me do not possess that ability. I have no desire to split a hair. Mine aren't long enough and I'd probably get in trouble getting a hold of long hair:eek:. I like a mirrored edge, but too lazy to continue to go that far. I can get my knives sharp enough to perform like I want. The sharpening equipment I have does just fine without having to get more stuff.
It's like anything else, you get what you put into it with what you've got.
 
Since I was a little kid I have fooled around with sharpening various edge tools.
Mostly the results were less than I wanted and took longer than I wanted to spend.
Keep chanting : hand sharpening is faster than jig sharpening . . .hand sharpening is faster than jig sharpening . . .hand sharpening is faster than jig sharpening . . .hand sharpening is faster than jig sharpening . . .
Keep it going oh yeah baby !
I can see the light I can see the light I can . . . nah
Hand sharpening sucks. Period.

Then I got into hard core, top of the top hand tool woodworking. I wanted to learn how the old dudes back in the eighteenth century did it. We are talking the Goddards and Townsends.
Look up the North Bennet Street School of Woodworking.
Yeah . . . like that.
This kind of work takes real edge tool edges.
Fortunately there are jigs now for sharpening those edges and I bought and used them. Just because they were available and easily acquired and easy to use. Why not right. Once I went through the motions I tested the edge to see how it came out :
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
That was easy ! ! !
SHARP ? ! ? !
Unbelievably
sharp.

It doesn't take much. Just get an Edge Pro Apex and learn to use it. That is the knife dude's equivalent of the sharpening jig I was using for the woodworking plane blades and chisels.
Make up a check list from watching Ben's videos and take notes.
Skip no step.

Your edges will scare the pants off you. You will take the edge to your thumb nail or the hair on your arm and you will get this sick creepy crawly sensation at the base of your spine.

Nothing to it. ;)
. . . or . . . you can "play" around with other sharpening stuff.
I prefer the real deal.
 
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BruceMack said:
I was using the SharpMaker earlier today to get the best possible edge on my Manly Peak. While it's my best edge I know it's not the best edge, invoking the adage "you don't know what you don't know". What I don't know is whether Josh of Razor Edge Knives or someone with comparable talent could amaze me with an edge from hell. I'm tempted to send my best effort to him and see what he returns. The problem is how would I compare as the knife would be away for weeks and my tactile memory insufficient? I may still send it.
Has anyone with decent sharpening skills acted on this question, and what did you find?
(to the moderator, I pose this as a general question but perhaps it should be in the maintenance forum)
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If you'll agree to write up a review/comparison for the forum I'll do one for free. No expectations. I don't do it professionally anymore anyway; it'll just be interesting to see a sane person's take on the results.
 
I find there is highly usable sharp... what I am truly after. Then there is "showing off" sharp... which is more fun but not necessarily more practical. I decided years ago to sell off one high end knife and buy an Edge Pro Apex, and it's been a great value for me. I use all my knives or they get sold, the Apex makes quick work of keeping a sharp edge on the knife.
 
A coarse edge cuts aggressively, the scratch pattern from the stone leaves tiny little serrations on the edge. While it cuts and saws like crazy these "teeth" can break off pretty easily once you get to cutting. When you put a higher polish on an edge you are shrinking the serrations down to where if the edge does get damaged it will still cut. It's not a complete waste of time to polish an edge, it just depends on what you'll be doing with the knife whether it's worth the extra effort or not.

I would encourage everyone to learn to sharpen free hand. It's definitely much harder than using a guide rod system, but if you learn how to freehand you aren't tied down to a sharpening system when it comes time to restore an edge. You can buy a cheap stone and some cheap dollar store kitchen knives to learn on, it's worth the investment.
 
Rezarf said:
I find there is highly usable sharp... what I am truly after. Then there is "showing off" sharp... which is more fun but not necessarily more practical. I decided years ago to sell off one high end knife and buy an Edge Pro Apex, and it's been a great value for me. I use all my knives or they get sold, the Apex makes quick work of keeping a sharp edge on the knife.
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Here I am agreeing and disagreeing with whiplash effect on my poor little brain.

or I should say disagreeing first; the stock factory edge on my Para2 M4 but sharpened to a polished if not actual mirror is TOTALLY ALL THE SHOW OFF that I could ever want and hope to own sharpened by my self or anyone else. I actually do a whole lot of push cut trimming (carving like passes) so polished is IT for me. The edge off the EP Shapton Glass 4,000 takes curl after curl off a single hair while it is still in my arm. That's good enough for me. And that edge LASTS for weeks. By lasts I mean it remains shave sharp for that long in M4. The whittling goes away but not super fast.

Agreeing in that using the Edge Pro I don't even need to use any film or strop plate (leather on aluminum or balsa on aluminum) . . . all I have to do is set up the angle to hit the factory edge and progress through four or five grits . . . deburing takes care of it's self with this heat treat from Spyderco . . . I don't even change the angle to refine the very edge, in fact I think that is why the edge is so effective (the Japanese wood workers would agree with me; they tend to maintain the PRIMARY GRIND all the way to the edge on their edge tools and are of the opinion that to micro bevel or secondary bevel is a mistake and short cut in edge geometry / sharpening.

The Edge Pro helps me to do this; one sharpening bevel to the apex with zero rounding.

Bottom line : I could not make the edge more show off tricky if I tried. Sure I could strop it and get thiner and more curls off the hair . . . so what.

PS : the same level of show off is attainable on a woodworking hand plane blade at a single bevel angle of 54° ! ! ! ! (there is only one bevel the edge is chisel grind and so flat on one side) shaves curl after curl off a single hair.
How is this possible ? ? ? = using a really good RIDGID sharpening jig. None of this having the blade hanging out there on the end of a flexible "diving board" like clamp like so many of the current crop of "sharpening jigs" I see for knives.

That same 54° edge geometry is highly practical for planing reversing wood grain and burl on some of the hardest of the hard woods to a . . . here's the show off tricky part . . . polished some what reflective surface ready for finish with zero sanding.

I need to start a religion . . . get T-shirts printed that say something like :
One Geometry One Cause

. . . well that's not quite right but you get the idea . . .
. . . one . . . the cause is great the choices few . . . sharpen once cut through all the crap . . .
hmmmmmmm
can one have the word crap on a religious T-shirt ?
So many questions (but not about how to sharpen).
:)
 
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MarkN86 said:
I would encourage everyone to learn to sharpen free hand. It's definitely much harder than using a guide rod system, but if you learn how to freehand you aren't tied down to a sharpening system when it comes time to restore an edge. You can buy a cheap stone and some cheap dollar store kitchen knives to learn on, it's worth the investment.
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Totally :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I sharpen cobalt drill bits at work freehand all the time.
They don't shave curls off my arm hair though.
I do get two nice clean curls coming up through the flutes; heck can't say that for the factory sharpening job. ;)
 
BellaBlades said:
You know when you know.

I can finally achieve a hair splitting semi-mirror edge, or a coarse shredding 600 grit edge.

Guided , crock sticks or freehand.

So. I know that I would never let another human being sharpen my knife .

That's when you know. Took about 18 years of practice. I'm 31 :)
Click to expand...

This is where I’m at too. Competent enough to get a sharp edge on a dull knife. However major reprofiles to like a completely jacked up edge are beyond my skill. Also 31 years old.

BruceMack said:
I was using the SharpMaker earlier today to get the best possible edge on my Manly Peak. While it's my best edge I know it's not the best edge, invoking the adage "you don't know what you don't know". What I don't know is whether Josh of Razor Edge Knives or someone with comparable talent could amaze me with an edge from hell. I'm tempted to send my best effort to him and see what he returns. The problem is how would I compare as the knife would be away for weeks and my tactile memory insufficient? I may still send it.
Has anyone with decent sharpening skills acted on this question, and what did you find?
(to the moderator, I pose this as a general question but perhaps it should be in the maintenance forum)
Click to expand...

The way I test sharpness is by the noise of the knife when it cuts paper. A very sharp knife should be almost silent as it cuts making just a very quiet “shhhhhhhk” noise.
 
Lapedog said:
This is where I’m at too. Competent enough to get a sharp edge on a dull knife. However major reprofiles to like a completely jacked up edge are beyond my skill. Also 31 years old.
Click to expand...
Hmmm I always pictured you as one of us old dudes.

Are you going with a very coarse stone for the reprofiling ? At least a 150 or 120 ( I just got a 60 grit). Nice and hard like a Crystolon or Shapton Pro or T2 series.
 
Wowbagger said:
Hmmm I always pictured you as one of us old dudes.

Are you going with a very coarse stone for the reprofiling ? At least a 150 or 120 ( I just got a 60 grit). Nice and hard like a Crystolon or Shapton Pro or T2 series.
Click to expand...

Nope I’m using crappy equipment in a way it wasn’t designed to be used to get a good edge.

Basically I use spyderco sharpmaker rods (diamond, medium, fine and ultrafine) and sometimes dmt coarse plates.

I just hold the knife in one hand and the rod in the other to do one side, then switch hands to do the other side. So the knife and rod are switching hands each time I switch sides of the edge.

I can get a mirror polished edge that will whittle hair, though some knives with funky edges and certain steels are harder than others. Actually if I carry the knife it usually gets a mirror edge pretty soon just from doing touch ups since I typically will touch up an edge rather than letting it degrade.

For some reason my hair is very difficult to whittle whereas if I borrow a hair off a friend it whittles fine.

I do need to get an xtra coarse diamond stone.
 
These days for initial testing right after sharpening & burr removal i mostly use a few chest hairs.
I hold each one at the root end only and check on various points of the edge how far from the point of holding the apex still whittles the hair towards the hair point.
Then cut a few times straight into the edge of an old piece of beechwood cutting board making sure to use the entire knife edge from heel to tip, then check again on various points of the edge if the apex can still can do the exact same thing to the hair at the same distance from the point of holding as before the cutting.
The further away the keener the apex is.
 
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