How do you sharpen your CPK’s?

This is exaggerated and overly simplistic, but it's a fact that I'm a simple man :) who's been know to exaggerate <a little> ;)...

Think of it this way:
*Chisels and axes have polished edges...
*Saws have toothy edges...

You wouldn't saw with an axe, nor would you want to chop with a serrated saw toothed tool.

So consider your most normal uses:

1. Do you push cut, carve, chop, and whittle more? If so, try a refined, polished edge.

2. Or do you slice stuff more? Toothy edge would likely suit you more.

I like a fine <ca. 600 grit> semi-toothy edge for my uses, it pretty versatile, too.
 
I have never had a need or desire to shave a hair and TBCH, I really don't care about it per se. I do care about an edge that cuts well and lasts a long time. A semi-toothy edge can be a wicked slicer and is definitely where it is at for me. Dare I say most real world users as well?
 
on_the_edge said:
I have never had a need or desire to shave a hair and TBCH, I really don't care about it per se. I do care about an edge that cuts well and lasts a long time. A semi-toothy edge can be a wicked slicer and is definitely where it is at for me. Dare I say most real world users as well?
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Exactly ^^^ :thumbsup:

but on a <mostly> dedicated chopper like a Behomother or HDMC-- those users might be better served to run a polished edge.

Again-- this is extreme-- but think about banging a fine toothed hacksaw blade with some weight behind the edge in a chopping motion against a piece of dense hardwood like ironwood or osage orange.

It's kinda easy to imagine the hacksaw teeth bending, maybe even breaking in such a usage.

Now for laughs, imagine chopping a really coarse toothed rip saw blade in the same way against a dense stump...OUCH!

dizzy-pilots-three-stooges-ruined-saw-300x225.jpg


It's the same principle, on a micro level, with a knife edge when used to chop.

Not to say a polished edge won't degrade also, but just that it's LESS likely and more resistant to deformation than the toothy edge when chopping, carving, push cutting, etc.
 
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it's possible to, more or less, polish the edge without polishing the entire secondary bevel. If that's what you need for specific work, like cutting meat or whatever. That's part of what stropping does
 
Lorien said:
it's possible to, more or less, polish the edge without polishing the entire secondary bevel. If that's what you need for specific work, like cutting meat or whatever. That's part of what stropping does
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So which is better for cutting meat—polished edge or toothy edge? I always thought that toothy was better (eg. steak knives have really big teeth called serrations and Bob Dozier's D2 is toothy, which I always thought was the thought behind using that steel in the first place), but I could be wrong.

Sorry, I don't mean to get off topic here. I agree with PeteyTwoPointOne PeteyTwoPointOne and understand it, but am seeking a little further clarity on your point about cutting meat.
 
on_the_edge said:
So which is better for cutting meat—polished edge or toothy edge? I always thought that toothy was better (eg. steak knives have really big teeth called serrations and Bob Dozier's D2 is toothy, which I always thought was the thought behind using that steel in the first place), but I could be wrong.

Sorry, I don't mean to get off topic here. I agree with PeteyTwoPointOne PeteyTwoPointOne and understand it, but am seeking a little further clarity on your point about cutting meat.
Click to expand...

Chris, I don't know if you're asking me or Lorien, but here goes my answer...

Restaurant steak knives are serrated-- and the choice for cutting meat -- for a couple reasons:

1. Predictably-- for slicing fibrous flesh, the teeth act like a little chain saws...

2. To protect the little, sharp, concave serrations from ceramic plates since only the points contact the plate usually. The public, at large, are rough on cutlery. Serrations optimize the usefulness of the knife.

So, yeah, my experience is a plain edge knife <not Spyderedge or similar> sharpened "toothy" is a great, versatile edge for meat, skin, and such. Plus it will serve you well in almost every kind of task you'd use a knife for usually. Basically, exactly what you described a few posts back.
 
on_the_edge said:
So which is better for cutting meat—polished edge or toothy edge? I always thought that toothy was better (eg. steak knives have really big teeth called serrations and Bob Dozier's D2 is toothy, which I always thought was the thought behind using that steel in the first place), but I could be wrong.

Sorry, I don't mean to get off topic here. I agree with PeteyTwoPointOne PeteyTwoPointOne and understand it, but am seeking a little further clarity on your point about cutting meat.
Click to expand...

if you're cutting meat professionally, you really don't want to tear it at all. Petey gave a great answer as to why citizens are given aggressively serrated knives for cutting their steaks etc. The chef who made the cuts is going to want a very keen edge so as not to cause collateral damage

toothy and polished aren't mutually exclusive. If you have an edge finished to something like 320 grit or whatever, you can go over it with an extremely fine grit in order to get the bigger chunks and any burr off and smooth out the high points. When you strop, the soft backing will squeeze into the crevices and remove any burr like material there and clean them out. You'll end up with an edge that is irregular and a little jagged on a small scale but is also smooth
 
on_the_edge said:
So which is better for cutting meat—polished edge or toothy edge? I always thought that toothy was better (eg. steak knives have really big teeth called serrations and Bob Dozier's D2 is toothy, which I always thought was the thought behind using that steel in the first place), but I could be wrong.

Sorry, I don't mean to get off topic here. I agree with PeteyTwoPointOne PeteyTwoPointOne and understand it, but am seeking a little further clarity on your point about cutting meat.
Click to expand...
PeteyTwoPointOne pretty much nailed the reason why commercial steak knives are serrated. They remain usable without needing to be sharpened or touched up for much longer than a plain edged steak knife would.

There ARE high end restaurants with plain edged steak knives. One small part of the high prices (aside from ensuring the quality of the cuts of meat) is rolled into periodic sharpening of the steak knives.

As for which is better for meat, plain/polished vs toothy, Lorien's explanations/descriptions are pretty spot on, so I'll just tack on a little add-on.

In Japanese cuisine, there are quite a few selections where clean slices are imperative. Things like sashimi and sushi, fugu and shabu-shabu etc. (as well as some of the garnish/vegetables). Thin slices with clean edges are part of the aesthetics of the presentation.

A Yanagiba with a polished edge using something like a 16,000 grit Shapton stone will easily slice raw meat thinly. The cuts are very smooth.

In one of my prior posts, I mentioned preferring to use a DMT Diafold Fine to touch up general use edges. DMT states that their Fine is equivalent to about 600 grit or 25 microns. This edge will shave hair, and is toothy enough for cutting a wide variety of things.

In comparison, a Shapton 16,000 grit is stated to be about 0.92 microns.

If you actually look at the cut surface of a slice of sashimi cut with a Yanagiba polished on on a Shapton 16,000 stone, vs cut with a kitchen knife sharpened with a DMT Fine grit, the Yanagiba produces a very smooth, clean cut and slices very easily.

Both will cut well, it just depends on what you're doing, and your preference.

P.S. someone also mentioned chisels/planes, and yes, shaving thin slices of wood is easier with a very fine, polished edge.
 
Anybody ever seen a Spyderco Yurman? o_O

Anybody even ever heard of a Spyderco Yurman? o_Oo_O

Ha ha. No problem, probably no one has.

@Sal Glesser, ever the intrepid, self-professed edge junky / steel junky / sharpening junky has even ventured to fill the need of Kosher butchers.

Well, a truly Kosher butcher can't use any blade that may poke or "nick" or otherwise create even one iota of resistance/drag on the tissue of the butchered animal or else the meat can't be certified "Kosher."

The blade has to slide like it's on greased ice through the neck of the animal. The animal can't know it's dying until it's actually expired. So serrated edges are not allowed-- no matter how sharp.

Not only that, any steel that is prone to carbide tear out on the apex is not ideal, because that could create a nick. A Kosher butcher knife < called a "Chalif" > has to be ground extremely thin BTE with zero deformations.

Basically a large razor on a handle-- just with more steel retained on the primary grind. BUT just like Lorien Lorien stated above, the "tertiary and secondary" grinds must be very, very fine AND REfined.

This alludes to what B bluemax_1 mentions about Japanese chef blades, too...which is what got me remembering the Spyderco Yurman!

Sal's words:

Sal Glesser, 10-30-2001 (Bladeforums):
"The original Yurman design was used in the killing procedure of kosher chickens. It was a plain edge version. The serrated version was made at the same time simply because some of our customers wanted a serrated version. The steel is a stainless steel called MRS-30. It has 1.15 carbon and is an exceptional cutting tool."
Sal Glesser, 01-27-1999 (Bladeforums):
"The challif was in fact designed and produced for Rabbi Yurman in New York. It's intended use was as James described. The object is that knife is so sharp that the chicken does not know that is has been cut and dies without fear of death. This is what makes it kosher. Rabbi Yurman and his associates do in fact sharpen their knives, almost contantly. In fact their skill in sharpening exceeded mine. That is how I first came to know him. Rabbi Yurman was retrofitting our Santoku into a challif becuse of the exceptional performance and resharpening ability of the MBS-26 steel. The 1.05 Carbon was ideal in grain size. We decided (incorretly as time showed) to "upgrade" the steel to 1.15 Carbon (the original Al Mar steel). However when the challifs were sharpened to their very thin edge (1/10th of 1 mm thick), the larger secondary carbides were breaking out at the edge causing a very small knick. Knicks are unacceptable as they let the chicken know what's up. We all learned a lot (magna flux and microscopes). I have commited to make a challif for Rabbi Yurman from CPM-440V for his testing. Owen Wood is coming on board in April as our "in house" prototype maker (to help us out). Good project for Owen. Yes the handle was micarta. As long as the edge is over .008 (at the shoulder), there shouldn't be any knick problems. We reground a few into pointy fixed blade pieces. quite awesome in their performance.
hope this helps."

SpydieWiki link:
http://www.spydiewiki.com/index.php?title=K10_Kosher_Butching_Knife

If any of all of this intrigues you, here's another article that will give you a very good insight into a not-very-well-known area of cutlery and butchering and the Rabbi himself who collaborated with Sal:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/kosher-slaughter-knifemaker
 
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PeteyTwoPointOne said:
Anybody ever seen a Spyderco Yurman? o_O

Anybody even ever heard of a Spyderco Yurman? o_Oo_O

Ha ha. No problem, probably no one has.

@Sal Glesser, ever the intrepid, self-professed edge junky / steel junky / sharpening junky has even ventured to fill the need of Kosher butchers.

Well, a truly Kosher butcher can't use any blade that may poke or "nick" or otherwise create even one iota of resistance/drag on the tissue of the butchered animal or else the meat can't be certified "Kosher."

The blade has to slide like it's on greased ice through the neck of the animal. The animal can't know it's dying until it's actually expired. So serrated edges are not allowed-- no matter how sharp.

Not only that, any steel that is prone to carbide tear out on the apex is not ideal, because that could create a nick. A Kosher butcher knife < called a "Chalif" > has to be ground extremely thin BTE with zero deformations.

Basically a large razor on a handle-- just with more steel retained on the primary grind. BUT just like Lorien Lorien stated above, the "tertiary and secondary" grinds must be very, very fine AND REfined.

This alludes to what B bluemax_1 mentions about Japanese chef blades, too...which is what got me remembering the Spyderco Yurman!

Sal's words:

Sal Glesser, 10-30-2001 (Bladeforums):
"The original Yurman design was used in the killing procedure of kosher chickens. It was a plain edge version. The serrated version was made at the same time simply because some of our customers wanted a serrated version. The steel is a stainless steel called MRS-30. It has 1.15 carbon and is an exceptional cutting tool."
Sal Glesser, 01-27-1999 (Bladeforums):
"The challif was in fact designed and produced for Rabbi Yurman in New York. It's intended use was as James described. The object is that knife is so sharp that the chicken does not know that is has been cut and dies without fear of death. This is what makes it kosher. Rabbi Yurman and his associates do in fact sharpen their knives, almost contantly. In fact their skill in sharpening exceeded mine. That is how I first came to know him. Rabbi Yurman was retrofitting our Santoku into a challif becuse of the exceptional performance and resharpening ability of the MBS-26 steel. The 1.05 Carbon was ideal in grain size. We decided (incorretly as time showed) to "upgrade" the steel to 1.15 Carbon (the original Al Mar steel). However when the challifs were sharpened to their very thin edge (1/10th of 1 mm thick), the larger secondary carbides were breaking out at the edge causing a very small knick. Knicks are unacceptable as they let the chicken know what's up. We all learned a lot (magna flux and microscopes). I have commited to make a challif for Rabbi Yurman from CPM-440V for his testing. Owen Wood is coming on board in April as our "in house" prototype maker (to help us out). Good project for Owen. Yes the handle was micarta. As long as the edge is over .008 (at the shoulder), there shouldn't be any knick problems. We reground a few into pointy fixed blade pieces. quite awesome in their performance.
hope this helps."

SpydieWiki link:
http://www.spydiewiki.com/index.php?title=K10_Kosher_Butching_Knife

If any of all of this intrigues you, here's another article that will give you a very good insight into a not-very-well-known area of cutlery and butchering and the Rabbi himself who collaborated with Sal:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/kosher-slaughter-knifemaker
Click to expand...
Read the article on the Rabbi. His knives look like competition cutters. Might have to put these CKCCs I’ve got to work. Heeerrrrre chick, chick, chick, chick......
 
Grenock said:
Read the article on the Rabbi. His knives look like competition cutters. Might have to put these CKCCs I’ve got to work. Heeerrrrre chick, chick, chick, chick......
Click to expand...

I don't think the edge would hold up chopping golf balls. :eek: Like, one and done.

I know you're just kidding around. :p

But it does look like a CPK Comp. Chop. especially the cleaver end. :thumbsup:

But, again, the Kosher knives are designed like that to keep the butcher from errantly "poking" the animal with the tip when dispatching and processing.
 
What grit do you guys find results in a toothy edge and further grit progression becomes more polished? 600? 800?

I sold my W.E. and invested in a series of Venev bonded diamond stones 240, 400, 800, 1200. Im planning to take my EDC through the 400 with a good burr (properly removed) with some light refinement at 1200. Im hoping this achieves a great, toothy, working edge.

Thoughts?
 
TRfromMT said:
What grit do you guys find results in a toothy edge and further grit progression becomes more polished? 600? 800?

I sold my W.E. and invested in a series of Venev bonded diamond stones 240, 400, 800, 1200. Im planning to take my EDC through the 400 with a good burr (properly removed) with some light refinement at 1200. Im hoping this achieves a great, toothy, working edge.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I run my working edges up < or would it be down? :confused: > to 600 on the WE @ 18 dps...I touch up on the SharpMaker Medium Rod corners @ 20dps when I find my edge has lost some of it's bite a little...very very light passes trying to avoid burr formation...

when I feel like my apex is degraded beyond hitting it on the SM, I grind it on the 400 side of WE hones @18 dps, finish with the 600 again...and so it goes...works for me, ymmv.

I've been know to hit a lick or two on my strop with green compound when the mood hits me, too.

btw, anything I've had a major regrind <like a couple of my Busses> I've sent to Josh @REK...if I ever fudge up a CPK biggun, I won't hesitate to send it back over the mountain to Nathan and CPK crew...just haven't needed to...
 
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I appreciate that so much of their ritual is, in effect, to prevent unnecessary suffering of the animal being slaughtered. most of the animals that I have killed were shot in the head which is pretty instantaneous I think. but it sounds like these animals are cut and dead without ever realizing they were ever even cut due to the care and competency and extremely sharp knives used. That appeals to me. Pretty progressive for a multi thousand year culture.

As they said in the article, sharpening a knife competently is no more difficult than playing the piano
 
PeteyTwoPointOne said:
Anybody ever seen a Spyderco Yurman? o_O

Anybody even ever heard of a Spyderco Yurman? o_Oo_O

Ha ha. No problem, probably no one has.

@Sal Glesser, ever the intrepid, self-professed edge junky / steel junky / sharpening junky has even ventured to fill the need of Kosher butchers.

Well, a truly Kosher butcher can't use any blade that may poke or "nick" or otherwise create even one iota of resistance/drag on the tissue of the butchered animal or else the meat can't be certified "Kosher."

The blade has to slide like it's on greased ice through the neck of the animal. The animal can't know it's dying until it's actually expired. So serrated edges are not allowed-- no matter how sharp.

Not only that, any steel that is prone to carbide tear out on the apex is not ideal, because that could create a nick. A Kosher butcher knife < called a "Chalif" > has to be ground extremely thin BTE with zero deformations.

Basically a large razor on a handle-- just with more steel retained on the primary grind. BUT just like Lorien Lorien stated above, the "tertiary and secondary" grinds must be very, very fine AND REfined.

This alludes to what B bluemax_1 mentions about Japanese chef blades, too...which is what got me remembering the Spyderco Yurman!

Sal's words:

Sal Glesser, 10-30-2001 (Bladeforums):
"The original Yurman design was used in the killing procedure of kosher chickens. It was a plain edge version. The serrated version was made at the same time simply because some of our customers wanted a serrated version. The steel is a stainless steel called MRS-30. It has 1.15 carbon and is an exceptional cutting tool."
Sal Glesser, 01-27-1999 (Bladeforums):
"The challif was in fact designed and produced for Rabbi Yurman in New York. It's intended use was as James described. The object is that knife is so sharp that the chicken does not know that is has been cut and dies without fear of death. This is what makes it kosher. Rabbi Yurman and his associates do in fact sharpen their knives, almost contantly. In fact their skill in sharpening exceeded mine. That is how I first came to know him. Rabbi Yurman was retrofitting our Santoku into a challif becuse of the exceptional performance and resharpening ability of the MBS-26 steel. The 1.05 Carbon was ideal in grain size. We decided (incorretly as time showed) to "upgrade" the steel to 1.15 Carbon (the original Al Mar steel). However when the challifs were sharpened to their very thin edge (1/10th of 1 mm thick), the larger secondary carbides were breaking out at the edge causing a very small knick. Knicks are unacceptable as they let the chicken know what's up. We all learned a lot (magna flux and microscopes). I have commited to make a challif for Rabbi Yurman from CPM-440V for his testing. Owen Wood is coming on board in April as our "in house" prototype maker (to help us out). Good project for Owen. Yes the handle was micarta. As long as the edge is over .008 (at the shoulder), there shouldn't be any knick problems. We reground a few into pointy fixed blade pieces. quite awesome in their performance.
hope this helps."

SpydieWiki link:
http://www.spydiewiki.com/index.php?title=K10_Kosher_Butching_Knife

If any of all of this intrigues you, here's another article that will give you a very good insight into a not-very-well-known area of cutlery and butchering and the Rabbi himself who collaborated with Sal:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/kosher-slaughter-knifemaker
Click to expand...
Can't believe there's a wiki of a Spyderco model with no pics o_O

BTW, funny sidenote about your post above regarding these kosher 'humane slaughter' knives:

I originally typed it into my post above about a polished edge on a Yanagiba but edited it out. The edited out bit said:
- One thing to be wary of with a highly polished edge like that on a knife. If you screw up, the cut is so clean, you might not realize that you've been cut for a little while.

You don't feel the cut, and it might not even start bleeding immediately because the cut stays closed the same way a flat object sticks to a wet countertop.

Then you notice a bit of blood and go, "Huh? And you investigate the source/cut and prod it/spread the cut to see how deep it is, then it really starts to bleed :p
 
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