how does 3v do in the abs js test

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chad2

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i do not know very much about this test but i do know that 5160 steel is the number one winner in this test, i also know that this test is pretty hard to pass.

Now my question is that, every one thinks 3v is tougher than 5160. But there is no tested info on this discussion. I was wondering if anyone has seen some one use a 3v steel blade in the abs test and if so how did it do? The reason i ask is because 5160 can be differentially quenched making the edge very hard for edge retention while keeping toughness and flexability. Is a differentially quenched 5160 blade better in edge retention and toughness then 3v.

Just for the sake of discussion lets say both blades are at 60 hrc at the edge.

Also i know that 3v will have better edge retention, because of the V in it, but can you get a higher hrc out of 5160 while keeping the toughness around what 3v is at 60 hrc?

I am just trying to get an idea of how much tougher 3v is then 5160. Because the way alot of people like to explain it is 5160 is not even in the same. Universe as 3v.
 
An easier question.

Can a master smith make a 5160 steel knife out perform 3v in edge retention and toughness?
 
The first question may be invalid. A big part of the ABS test is to show that the smith can HT a blade with a soft spine and a hard edge, and that's just not practical with 3V.

chad2 said:
Can a master smith make a 5160 steel knife out perform 3v in edge retention and toughness?
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That question is definitely valid. My guess is, no... but I can't prove it. I would love to see a side-by-side performance comparison of 3V and 5160 with the same geometry and Rc hardness, ignoring the "how far can you bend it" part.
 
The ABS performance test is easy and 5160 is the easiest steel to pass it with. Having your 5 knives judged at the Blade show is the hard part.

Make the test knife from 5160, then use what ever steel you like to make knives from.
 
james terrio said:
The first question may be invalid. A big part of the ABS test is to show that the smith can HT a blade with a soft spine and a hard edge, and that's just not practical with 3V.


That question is definitely valid. My guess is, no... but I can't prove it. I would love to see a side-by-side performance comparison of 3V and 5160 with the same geometry and Rc hardness, ignoring the "how far can you bend it" part.
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This is exactly what i want to hear. From people who have or can test this.
 
chad2 said:
This is exactly what i want to hear. From people who have or can test this.
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Me too. Here's the problem, not too many people work with both those alloys. I offer a friendly challenge... someone send me a chunk of new, real 5160 (not some old leaf-spring junkyard thingamabob you think might/could/should be 5160!) and I'll supply a piece of CPM-3V in the same thickness, and grind a blade from each as close to the same dimensions as I possibly can.

I'll have them HT'ed to same hardness (I suggest 58Rc) and testing will commence from there. Then we'll have a better idea.

I have no axe to grind, I'm honestly interested in the results.
 
3V, done right is going to outperform 5160 in everything but rusting... lol. The ABS JS performance test isn't about how good of a knife you can make. It is design to see how skilled of a knifemaker you are and is mostly pertaining to heat control. You are jumpng through hoops. It is not about making a statement... it is about fulfilling basic criteria as a maker. 5160 is a great steel for this application because it lends itself well to the extremes involved in the performance test and is easily worked by simple means.
 
James T - tell me where to buy and ship the 5160 and I'll have it sent to you, if you send me back the finished blade from either 5160 or 3v after you are done with the test.
 
Rick Marchand said:
3V, done right is going to outperform 5160 in everything but rusting... lol.
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Yeah, it's actually pretty difficult to get hardened 3V to actually rust.
Rick Marchand said:
The ABS JS performance test isn't about how good of a knife you can make. It is designed to see how skilled of a knifemaker you are and is mostly pertaining to heat control.
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That's my understanding. The ABS test rules are very clear about that, to their credit. :thumbup: The test pieces I have in mind will be strictly utilitarian, not something I would take to a show or in front of a certification judge.
RWT said:
James T - tell me where to buy and ship the 5160 and I'll have it sent to you, if you send me back the finished blade from either 5160 or 3v after you are done with the test.
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My challenge was partly tongue-in-cheek... I'm very confident as to which alloy will win. If you supply the 5160, I will gladly send you the losing knife and sell the other :D :p

BUT! I've never seen it done, and it would be interesting to put this thing to rest. I will stand behind my challenge, for the sake of honest discussion and good clean fun. I am NOT talking about a destruction test! No bending in a vise or chopping concrete blocks. (I'm still confident which one would win, but that's not the point of this thread.)

As for buying the 5160, I would call Aldo first and Chuck next. Ask for something in the range of 1/4" thick by 2" wide; we only need a piece 15" long.

This is not going to happen overnight; I'm booked solid for roughly 4 months and am in the process of moving my home and shop 850 miles. Please keep that in mind.
 
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A steel like 3V is not going to reposed well to torch heat treat. You can't just get it red and dunk it. Also, playing around with it like that kind of defeats the purpose of using PM steel IMO.
 
Who said anything about torches? I have all my HT done by Peters'.
 
since the ABS calls for a forged blade you let me know how an air hardening steel works under the hammer. i know you can in fact forge it but the temp. window is narrow to work it. you woudl need a massive amount that time after working it in the kiln to get it back to nearly as good as it comes right from the mill (im not sure how much of the benefits of PM processes would be lost in the multi heat forging )

the onely thing that the 3v blade might have a hard time with is the bend test but that wouodl be over come with the proper blade shape
a 3v blade that was 1/8 inch thick might have a shot at the bend test but woudl be slow in the 2x4 chop (its not a speed test tho so not a factor) remember its all about balanceing the steel with the test
 
Well said Butch..... the content, that is... no comment on the grandmer and speelng. You know I love ya, buddy!

I totally agree with Butch. 3V just doesn't make a good match the ABS Performance test. Why would you risk messing with a PM steel? It is about as good as it's gonna get, direct from the mill.

Some might say, "How do they know if you've forged the blade or not?" Well, they really don't... but if the Master Smith suspects something is fishy, they have every right to question you on heat treat and even ask you to demonstrate your forging ability. If you show up with a 3V blade, be prepared for a gauntlet of technical questioning.
 
Also I was given to understand the heat treat must be done by yourself, that is kinda what they are testing
 
Nebulae said:
Also I was given to understand the heat treat must be done by yourself, that is kinda what they are testing
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Absolutely... if they doubt your credibility, they WILL expand the performance test. If you are caught trying to pull a fast one, good luck ever testing again.
 
I have used both steels. 3V can be forged, but unless you HAVE to, in order to get a certain shape--- I absolutely would not forge it. And yes, I have forged it myself. It does not like to be hammered to shape.

3V will out-cut 5160. It is very tough, and super duper abrasion resistant.

3V will NOT pass the Js test. If you get a big enough cheater bar on the blade to bend it, it is NOT going to bend very much before it breaks. A 3V blade will fly through the rope, 2X4 chop, and arm shaving test--- but none of that matters if you're going to snap the blade during the bend test.

:)
 
As an aside, I was told by one Master Smith that at least one JS tester had passed using a blade forged from 1018 and quenched in a lye based super-quench solution. Yeah, a lot of things might work, but why bother?
 
all valid answers and i agree with all of them but my question is can a 5160 blade be diferentially heat treated good enough to beat 3v in toughness and edge retention? but mainly toughness.

also james terrio if you want to test toughness take flat peices of steel cut them to knife shapes with out contouring them and test there side toughness using weight untill one breaks, of course at the same hardness.

then if the 5160 fails do another peice and diferentialy quench the edge so that the edge rc is the same on both but the spin is softer. then do the same test and see if the 5160 blade will out do the 3v blade

basicly a prying toughness test. or you could do cotoured blades and test edge deformation/chipping from angled cuts or side stress cuts.

but the reason i bring up this question is because i want to make a camping knife made for chopping, batoning and prying. i was wondering if a diferentially quenched 5160 blade would do better then 3v at this application.
 
jdm61 said:
As an aside, I was told by one Master Smith that at least one JS tester had passed using a blade forged from 1018 and quenched in a lye based super-quench solution. Yeah, a lot of things might work, but why bother?
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because now that guy can say he passed the js test with a 1018 blade. bragging rights!
 
chad2 said:
... but my question is can a 5160 blade be diferentially heat treated good enough to beat 3v in toughness and edge retention? but mainly toughness.
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Bottom line... 5160 will not out perform 3V, all heat treats and HRC equal. As far a toughness, 1018 will beat 3V hands down. As for Strength/Toughness ratio... you have to custom HT each steel to tweak its properties. 3V at 60HRC will outcut 5160 at the same hardness/geometry but 5160 will be tougher at lower hardness.

chad2 said:
but the reason i bring up this question is because i want to make a camping knife made for chopping, batoning and prying. i was wondering if a diferentially quenched 5160 blade would do better then 3v at this application.
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I would say for a beater blade, yes, 5160 would be my choice. 3V is a super steel design for edge retention, and impact toughness at higher HRC. 5160 is designed to ride under a pickup truck, suck up shock and give you a smooth ride. You are compairing a Formula One racer with a Baja Buggy .... it is not fair to either one.
 
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