How does medieval steel compare to modern steel?

[A.L.]

Geez, I knew there were many boomers here but from Medieval times!..

 

[Bob Denman]

Oh yeah, they had skills in smithing! But, the steel they used did not perform as well as modern steels. I'd still not have liked to have faced one of their blades in battle, even armed with modern steel. It's not the arrow, but the archer...

No doubt! I'd MUCH rather match a Medieval sword up against my .45!

 

[Dav1]

They understood how to differentially harden and I'm sure a good Smith would have made an excellent sword, probably limited to those who could afford them.

The Ulfberht swords and other similar swords found across Europe used "Wootz" steel, if Rosellis UHC is similar perhaps you have an answer to what was possible?

Although when I trained weapons it was evident that certainly in the East a knight/samurai would understand the limitations of his blade and train/fight accordingly.

I'd take a white oak (Shirakashi) Jo over any sword other than a very long one, anyway!

 

[Ron Sabbagh]

Depends

There may have been some incredible “smiths back in the day. They could have made a superior cutting instrument - no matter what the steel. I’ll bet some of the ancient Samurai swords performed better than a poorly made modern knife with modern steel…

Like they say …”it’s not the wand, it’s the magician..” It’s what you can do with the steel.

Many modern knife enthusiasts poo poo D2 steel but I’ll wager my Walter Brend or Bob Dozier D2 steel will keep up with or outperform the “flavor of the month steel” in most situations

 

[DMG]

Depends

There may have been some incredible “smiths back in the day. They could have made a superior cutting instrument - no matter what the steel. I’ll bet some of the ancient Samurai swords performed better than a poorly made modern knife with modern steel…

Like they say …”it’s not the wand, it’s the magician..” It’s what you can do with the steel.

Many modern knife enthusiasts poo poo D2 steel but I’ll wager my Walter Brend or Bob Dozier D2 steel will keep up with or outperform the “flavor of the month steel” in most situations

No, an incredible medieval smith or Japanese samurai sword maker couldn’t do anything special with the steel back then. Start with junk, end with junk.

Doziers heat treat is great. That wont turn it into M4 or 3V or Magnacut.

 

[Dav1]

Exactly they worked with what they had which was greatly dependent on where they lived (differing quality of iron ore etc...). You could bet that any country which was often at war learnt from a practical perspective over hundreds of years. I'd hazard a guess a modern sword even by a good maker may not work as well in battle, are they truly tested?

We all know how important grind, and shape of the blade is regardless of steel. I can't imagine they worried about how much hemp rope or cardboard boxes they could cut

 

[DMG]

Exactly they worked with what they had which was greatly dependent on where they lived (differing quality of iron ore etc...). You could bet that any country which was often at war learnt from a practical perspective over hundreds of years. I'd hazard a guess a modern sword even by a good maker may not work as well in battle, are they truly tested?

We all know how important grind, and shape of the blade is regardless of steel. I can't imagine they worried about how much hemp rope or cardboard boxes they could cut

I think you may fail to grasp just how bad metallurgy was back then.

 

[Dav1]

No I don't and I have a decent understanding of weapons through extensive practice. They understood tempering, consistent heat treat and how to remove impurities. Yes it was by trial and error but over generations it became an art form and did use the scientific "principle".

Ancient blacksmiths were pioneers of modern welding | Welding Value

Blacksmith and archaeologist, Ph.D. Mikko Moilanen reconstructs Viking Age swords with the same techniques that blacksmiths used a Millenium ago.

weldingvalue.com

You hit a seasoned white oak Jo/Staff with your "super steel" blade and see what happens.

 

[eveled]

Since they had no structural understanding of steel components and their effects on the end product as well as an understanding of temperature effects

or any way to accurately measure temperature.

 

[TheEdge01]

They tested their weapons before deeming them sufficient for battle. The swords weren’t necessarily designed to be razor sharp, but it needed to be sharp enough to cut on impact due to the armor they wore at the time. I’d imagine that the steel would be half way decent if the swords held up against armor, yet were light enough to wield in battle. It isn’t as good as modern day steel, but it served it’s purpose during that time period. It was certainly a step up from bronze weapons.

 

[DMG]

They tested their weapons before deeming them sufficient for battle. The swords weren’t necessarily designed to be razor sharp, but it needed to be sharp enough to cut on impact due to the armor they wore at the time. I’d imagine that the steel would be half way decent if the swords held up against armor, yet were light enough to wield in battle. It isn’t as good as modern day steel, but it served it’s purpose during that time period. It was certainly a step up from bronze weapons.

If I recall from reading, many of the swords shattered during the tempering process which certainly kept the worst of them out of battle. You are correct, I big step up from bronze.

 

[damib]

To react to recent posts. The scientific method isn't all about going from microscopic knowledge of structure to macroscopic properties. Trial and error is generally a very scientific way also. And that applies for material science twice. You also can't really understand how and why the structure happens to be the way it is only by examining the structure itself. And sometimes you just don't know the exact reason why exactly certain structure forms. The optical and electron microscopy along with deep understanding of physical chemistry (phase diagrams, calorimetry, crystalization etc...) were certainly huge leaps for material science, but if you come across alloys from more than 4 components, then it's very difficult to predict what happens on addition of another component to the system. So, then it returns to the same trial and error process our ancestors had to do over and over again. I think that the only huge difference nowadays is in the purity of materials that we come across these days and the knowledge that you can shape material's properties by addition of "impurities" into it.

Edit: As for the temperature sake. You don't really need to know the exact temperature sometimes. You just need to know how to detect the right temperature by other means. Repeatability is sometimes questionable though, but it can be quite a accurate if repeated by the same person or by using exactly the same method.

 

[Dav1]

.

 

[soc_monki]

or any way to accurately measure temperature.

From what I saw of bark river, they go by steel color to determine how hot it is and when to quench. How is that any different than what they did in ancient times? Seems they could be more consistent if they used modern heat treating ovens, but bark river continues to do things the old fashioned way and people still pay for it.

They knew a lot more back then then we give them credit for.

 

[Dav1]

Yoshindo Yoshihara must not know what he's doing either re heat treat as he does it the old way and seems to produce an "OK" blade.

 

[eveled]

From what I saw of bark river, they go by steel color to determine how hot it is and when to quench. How is that any different than what they did in ancient times? Seems they could be more consistent if they used modern heat treating ovens, but bark river continues to do things the old fashioned way and people still pay for it.

They knew a lot more back then then we give them credit for.

During WWI the tradesmen at the Springfield Armory went by color and made a few thousand 1903 rifles of questionable heat treatment some of them blew up. Depending on the ambient light on a given day, what they perceived as the desired color was actually a different temperature.

Still I understand what you are saying. Today they may go by color, but have a way to verify the temp that color is.

 

[damib]

During WWI the tradesmen at the Springfield Armory went by color and made a few thousand 1903 rifles of questionable heat treatment some of them blew up. Depending on the ambient light on a given day, what they perceived as the desired color was actually a different temperature.

Still I understand what you are saying. Today they may go by color, but have a way to verify the temp that color is.

Or they just have exactly the same ambient lighting everytime they are making their knives. I think that the color itself is pretty accurate from physical point of view.

There is also the fact that you can have state of the art detection and analytical instruments, but you still have to use your brain when Interpreting the data as with all of the other methods. Measuring temperature seems very simple and easy, but it can also lead to very bad results due to not knowing properties of the detector for example. This is why workers even with relatively mundane jobs should be educated according to their position.

 

[greater]

My understanding, correct me if I am wrong is that modern steel is much better than medieval steel. There are however 2 exceptions that I read about. The Japanese steel used in swords and Viking made sword steel. They are right up there with modern steel or even better. One is the ways to tell if an excavation is Viking is the presence of steel that is far more advanced than the typical steel used at that time period. That being said the Vikings were not above buying swords not nearly as good but good enough to do the job from foreign sources.

 

[Dav1]

The viking swords you speak of would have been the Ulfberht blades made of imported "Wootz" possibly closely replicated (steel wise) by Rosellis UHC which indeed is a good steel even by the standards of today.

I've seen a few studies/papers which show that Japanese smiths were able to create a very good carbon steel (at least at the cutting edge) comparible to modern simple carbon steels.

 

[afishhunter]

Modern steels are more consistent than the steels of that period. Modern manufacturing techniques are also much improved.

As for taking a properly made modern sword with whatever modern steel back in time and wreaking havoc on the battlefield singlehandedly wiping out the opposing army? Probably not happening. They trained from childhood for swordsmanship, archery, or whatever. You may have a superior weapon, but you are immeasurably outclassed in both training and more importantly, experience, and knowing who amongst them is trustworthy not to run if/when things get ... "intense" ... on your section of the battlefield..

The troops back then would also have another not insignificant advantage over you: They would understand the language and dialect of the officers and NCO's giving them orders.
Even if they were speaking "english" the verbage has changed so much between then and now you probably wouldn't understand what they were saying.
Orders in writing would be little better. Just look at how much the spelling has changed over the years (spelling phonetically was common back then) ... not to mention some of the letters they used have been dropped from the alphabet more than 200 years now, they didn't have the letter "j" ...
No ... I fear if one were somehow able to go back with a superior modern steel sword and knife, he or she would still be screwed with a capitol "F".
Going back with a vastly superior considerably faster and more accurate modern compound bow with sights sights, drop rest, (or Whisker Biscuit rest) and everything else, a release, an unlimited supply of carbon fiber arrows with modern broadheads*, and joining a company of archers, you might not fair any better than had you gone back with only a sword and knife.

*Can't/shouldn't shoot wooden arrows from a compound bow. Draw wight to draw weight the acceleration forces/g forces of the compound bow are significantly higher than a longbow or recurve bow (which can use wooden arrows) to shatter the wood arrow on release.