How Good (or Bad) is 440A?

I have a lot of respect for you knifemakers that do it all and get the HT down pat or know where to go and go there.

That is more work than people think. Custom knives aren't expensive because of their raw matrls, they are expensive because of the man hours that went into making them but it is hard to get the average person to understand that.

Sorry if I went overboard:) My point is that if everything were equal, then there would be no need for Custom or Semicustom/limited production makers. You know all of the above, and it is more for those that have questions and think that 440A used by S&W is the same as 440A used by a custom maker or possibly a limited production group. They are not the same. We know that.:thumbup:
 
How good or bad is 440A?

I would say that it depends on what you plan to do with the knife.
I have plenty of Victorinox Swiss Army Knives that I'm happy with, but I only use them for easy tasks (opening letters, cutting thin string, peeling fruit, etc).
I think that using something like S30V or VG10 for such light duty is certainly overkill.
 
Cobalt,agreed.:thumbup: For me I'm limited to the steels I can HT with the equipment I have. I do not work in any stainless or super steels like S30V because I am unable to properly HT them. The tool steels I work with are within my capabilities. I guess what I should have said was once you understand what is involved in the HTing process, it really isn't that difficult to do. I've done alot of testing with my HTing and feel confident of my process. My customers tend to agree with me and that's where it matters most.:)
Scott
 
Razorback - Knives said:
Cobalt,agreed.:thumbup: For me I'm limited to the steels I can HT with the equipment I have. I do not work in any stainless or super steels like S30V because I am unable to properly HT them. The tool steels I work with are within my capabilities. I guess what I should have said was once you understand what is involved in the HTing process, it really isn't that difficult to do. I've done alot of testing with my HTing and feel confident of my process. My customers tend to agree with me and that's where it matters most.:)
Scott
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Scott,
that is exactly what I am talking about. I'd rather get a knife from you than one who I did not even know what the HT is, no matter what the steel. Dang it took us this long to get to the point. LOL.
By the way, I like your blade designs. Your choice of steel is what I would pick in my users and have done so.
 
Cobalt said:
Scott,
that is exactly what I am talking about. I'd rather get a knife from you than one who I did not even know what the HT is, no matter what the steel. Dang it took us this long to get to the point. LOL.
By the way, I like your blade designs. Your choice of steel is what I would pick in my users and have done so.
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Thanks :thumbup: Using, working knives are what I'm about. If you buy one from me and don't use the hell out of it, I get my feelings hurt.:D Seriously, I make knives to make knife users happy and I do everything in my power to make a quality tool.:)
Scott
 
What are the specs on Ron hoods blade. It looks like about 8 inch blade, 1/4 inch thick, paper micarta, 5160?
 
allenC said:
How good or bad is 440A?

I would say that it depends on what you plan to do with the knife.
I have plenty of Victorinox Swiss Army Knives that I'm happy with, but I only use them for easy tasks (opening letters, cutting thin string, peeling fruit, etc).
I think that using something like S30V or VG10 for such light duty is certainly overkill.
Click to expand...

And often, those higher grade steels are not used in designs that give them the blade/edge geometry to do those tasks as well as your Swiss Army. I would really love to see Victotinox jump up a notch to something like BG-42, S30V or similar, since being a super-thin, razor sharp blade designed purely for non-impact use (slicing and push cutting) is where we'd see these steels excell. Everyone keeps touting their "toughness" where that word could hardly apply to them less. 440A is tougher than they are, in that it it's far less likely to shatter or pop a tip if dropped on the ground. But (assuming HTs are equal) it can't hold an edge like they can. Can you imagine an S30V blade at 62RC with Victorinox's geometry? I'D be there! :D

Razorback-Knives said:
Seriously, I make knives to make knife users happy and I do everything in my power to make a quality tool.
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And you achieve it, Scott.

Warren
 
Cobalt said:
What are the specs on Ron hoods blade. It looks like about 8 inch blade, 1/4 inch thick, paper micarta, 5160?
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That knife has an 8" D2 blade with convex grind, 3/16" thick and 1 1/2" wide, 5" handle with impala jigged buffalo horn.

Thanks Warren.;)
Scott
 
Maybe someday I'lll learn how to sharpen convex edge. I have a real issue with that. Don't know what I am doing wrong. I like that big knife. Looks like it did wonders for Ron.
 
Tactical knives also are a specialty knife that may be called upon for combat or very light duty in the interim. One very high quality knife carries the Walther name, but it's 440A. Yet it's clear that it's a quality knife. It's also clear it wasn't intended as a hunting or high-use knife like a Buck.

Almost any decently treated stainless can be sharpened and wrenched and torqued if the knife's mechanism is quality. Cold Steel puts some of their blades in a vice and applies vicious pressure to show that they won't break. A soldier or police officer might need a knife to not only cut, but to pry doors or windows. A 440A blade that comes from a good manufacturer may do that just fine. Buck folders also have a reputation for tough duty.

As I understand it, 440A sharpens okay but isn't the best for holding an edge. I've also read that for years, 440C was the steel of choice for knife blades. But the only 440C I see nowadays are on cheap S&W knives and other throwaways.

So comparing a Cold Steel 440A to a Buck 420 HC, which blade could a consumer bank on as being a superior product?
 
"Tactical knives also are a specialty knife that may be called upon for combat or very light duty in the interim. One very high quality knife carries the Walther name, but it's 440A. Yet it's clear that it's a quality knife. "

How is it clear? They look good. Anyone can make something look good. Wait till you actually use it and abuse it to see if it holds up.


"So comparing a Cold Steel 440A to a Buck 420 HC, which blade could a consumer bank on as being a superior product?"

That is a tough question. I know that the 420HC on my Buck Intrepid was HT's by Paul Bos, but I cannot confirm that Paul Bos HT's the 420HC on the $39 NightHawks, and I would not count on it. I am not sure who HT's the Stainless stuff for CS. The Carbon steel by CS is usually Camillus so it should be good. If you want a sharpened prybar for cheap, then I would look into either CS SRK, Recon Scout Recon Tanto. Becker Campanion and Brute. That is as low as I would go in the throwaway category. Buck no longer makes the Intrepid, but you can get the Custom Version from Kit Carson called the U2. If you read all of the above you will realize there are different levels of quality. Don't expect perfection from a sub $100 knife.

"Almost any decently treated stainless can be sharpened and wrenched and torqued if the knife's mechanism is quality. "

It is wrong to assume that you can wrench on any folder. They are not meant for that. You will break them or loosen them up to the point that they are worthless.
 
I have a Gerber BMF knife with 440A & it rusted & pitted very bad even it is stainless steel. No, I didn't drop the knife in salt water I just stored it in Gerber factory cordura sheath.
 
m10commander said:
I have a Gerber BMF knife with 440A & it rusted & pitted very bad even it is stainless steel. No, I didn't drop the knife in salt water I just stored it in Gerber factory cordura sheath.
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Wow, I never would have expected that. Maybe it wasn't 440A. In fact comming from Japan, it should have been called AUS6A or something, since that is their designation for it. Whatever the case, it should not have pitted so easily. I have had many 440A knives from Sog and they never pitted like that even around salt water. My ATS34 knives did, however. Although they can hold an edge 5 times longer than 440A.
 
I agree that wrenching any folder can loosen them; however, Cold Steel has shown their folders to be fairly resiliant. The knife may not be one you want to use or keep, but in a dire emergency it's nice to know they've been tested under less than optimal conditions and held up. As far as Gerber goes, I think they're now into Smith & Wesson territory as far as quality goes. I wouldn't have one of the new ones. It does surprise me that one of their older ones rusted and pitted. Where and how was it stored? How long?
 
Don't be surprised. ATS34 is barely considered a stainless at 13.5% Chrome. It takes 12.5% chromium to be called stainless steel. 440 and 420 series usually have about 17% which keeps them from corroding quickly. The fact that the ATS34 rusted is my fault for not caring for it. If you take care of your stuff that won't happen. It was on my body while in the ocean swimming.
 
Longtime lurker posting here.

I don't know about Gerber, but I recently bought a used Buckmaster LT from someone in Hawaii (for under $45) and I'm pretty sure, since the webbing and metal were all worn away that it was used as a dive knife. (It was so dull it wouldn't cut paracord, but it sharpened up quite nicely).

The Rubber on the skeltonized handle had a leak and salt water stayed under it (this is all conjecture on my part) and there was a bit of surface rust but I steel wooled that out and have since had a lot of fun tricking the knife and sheath out with survival gear.

Here's what it looked like when I got it (after cutting away the handle rubber)
Buckmaster-LT.jpg
 
Razorback - Knives said:
I was merely stating that there is plenty of info on the internet for someone to learn how to HT.
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The problem isn't getting a recipe, it is figuring out which one gives you the performance you want. For example based on the following :

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graphA2.jpg

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graphA2vsO1.jpg

(note the massive difference in O1 and A2)

and the following :

[in regards to A2]

".... heated at 1750 to 1800F give about 62hrc-1750 to 63hrc-1800 at 350F. With cold treat you gain about 3hrc with the 1750F and about 2+1/2hrc with a 1800F heat. But best is above 1775 and lower than 1800F. So you end up with a knife at about 64-65hrc, same as a power hacksaw blade."

Now based on all that how to you heat treat an A2 blade which is (a) intended to be a light utility / hunting knife, and (b) a heavy utility chopping knife. Getting the info is easy, it is all in the ASM texts, figuring out which of the materials properties you need to make a superior knife is the hard part.

In regards to Bos, he does quality heat treatment for Buck, but I would find it hard to argue than Buck is superior to Spyderco in that regard and any custom maker should be able to exceed production because they can take the time to optomize the heat treatment for each blade or style, and can sacrifice blade after blade in the process of determining this information.

The last custom I had, the maker ground the blade long enough to crack it after hardening, regrind and send me the cracked off piece to see the grain. Somone like Wilson for example does HRC checks on each blade and constantly experiements to see if he can find a more optimal hardening.

Yes if I had to pick some blade at random or a Buck/Spyderco then yeah but that seems to be a silly way to pick a knife, it isn't difficult to tell if a maker does quality heat treatment just ask them a few specific questions.

-Cliff
 
You're right Cliff in that the info is there but you have to experiment with the equipment you have. The info on the different sites is used as a basic guideline and the maker has to tweak it to get the optimum results.
Scott
 
Yeah, that is why in general I look for makers who do their own heat treatment. It is just one more aspect of R&D.

-Cliff
 
Didn't Conans father heat treat his blades by forging with a 20 lb hammer and then quenching in snow? :D
 
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