How Important is Your Heritage?

[Tim-Gabz]

Heritage. , My matriarchal line goes back before the 1820 settlers to the niece of Thomas Watts. Most women died over 90 with one of 104 years.

My Paternal line to Capt Hardie. Not many men have made it to 60. None have died natural causes in the last 100 years.

Interesting but I would say that most everyone has some link to a historical figure in the past. Our first born into the 1820 settlers community of Grahams town had 19 surviving children and three husbands. She alone probably accounts for ¼ of the claims to the 1820 society.

I however have the family bible, and that is something of the past to hold and appreciate. Many of the OFS (Orange Free State) Methodist churches were built or the land donated by Great Grand Folk. The land for the Bloemfontein Courts was donated by the same folk. I have had a project in Maseru, Lesotho this year and had a great time travelling the many routes through the Free State to see these things (and to dig up dead ancestors to get a RSA passport).

Putting that aside our family has had its share of horrors. The Boer War Camps, the Somme, German East Africa, Changi, Rhodesia, Zimbabwe,,,,,, I have an artist’s portrait of my Grandfather whilst he was interned in Changi.

Life was hard and unromantic. It seemed that they lived, they were alive and accomplished something! Today it is sad to see so many people just existing.

So I came to Botswana from Zimbabwe with little but my education. I battling to keep my head above water and pay for the best education for my children so that they will have something to travel with.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Israel only came into being in 1948.

So we've been a nation without a homeland for a couple thousand years.

Jews are a nation, a people, Am Yisrael, the People of Israel, Israel being our ancestor Jacob.

In ancient times, many peoples believed in arguably the same pantheon of gods, but might have had their own names for each, and would pick one or another as the special god of their people.

So the religious rituals and explanatory myths of each people were peculiar to them. Jews today retain this ancient pattern: as a people, an ethnic group (of considerable genetic diversity!) we still adhere to some version of our original religion, but are defined primarily by matrilineal descent and only thereafter by not actually rejecting the ritual affiliation.

My own ancestry fades into the long East European misery that exploded in the Holocaust. My great-grandparents brought my infant grandparents here from Russia, Poland, and Austria, with one grandfather bringing himself here from White Russia.

I am only the second generation born here, but my only national loyalty is to the United States of America. The countries that rejected us are of minimal interest to me. The Jewish people, however scattered, divided, antagonistic, and quarrelsome, is much more fun!

 

[Trout Tamer]

Israel only came into being in 1948.

Not to beat it to death but, as others have stated, it's modernIsrael, as a sovereign national entity, that came into being in '48. As an ethno-religious group, Israel has existed for several thousand years. As a national entity, Israel existed for several hundreds of years before being divided and scattered by the late Roman Empire. But, as a nation, Israel is back

 

[allenC]

Only another Jew can understand where I am coming from.

I kinda doubt that most jews would understand where your coming from since the majority seem to consider themselves "God's chosen people".

Maybe another atheist jew....?

 

[Larry B.]

I kinda doubt that most jews would understand where your coming from since the majority seem to consider themselves "God's chosen people".

Maybe another atheist jew....?

What makes you an expert on what Jews consider themselves?

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I kinda doubt that most jews would understand where your coming from since the majority seem to consider themselves "God's chosen people".

How would you know what the majority of Jews "seem" to consider ourselves and what do you think "chosen" means?

 

[Larry B.]

Hey allenC,

Your chosen people remark has connotations of the Mel Gibson variety. If thats your feelings have the balls to say it.

 

[FullerH]

I have family that goes back to the earliest European roots in English-speaking North America. From my Mother's side, the Parsons ancestors came over on the Mayflower. The Robinsons did not as, although Pastor John Robinson was the pastor of the Pilgrim community, he had been tossed into the Plymouth, England, goal for being a dissenter from the Church of England. He had chartered the ship, but could not sail on her, which is probably just as well, considering that first winter.

My Fuller ancestor, Captain Thomas Fuller, also came over on the Mayflower, but his descendants decided to get out of Massachusetts. They stopped in Maryland during the period of the Cromwell Protectorate to set up a Presbyterian government in that colony, replacing the Roman Catholic Calvert family. Come the Restoration in 1660, they decided it was time to move on further South and wound up on the Sea Islands of Georgia as cotton planters. They lost it all in the War Between the States.

From my Paternal grandmother's side, I am descended from the settlers of Jamestown Colony, in other words, First Families of Virginia or FFV. In Maryland, I descend from the first settlers there, including the Calvert family. My grandmother was very active in the Ark and the Dove Society, which is the society for descendants of the first Maryland settlers. Of course, it is my opinion that these early settlements were so small that it was inevitable that the various families would so intermarry that everyone was related to everyone else.

It is through my paternal grandmother that I am descended from Alexander Magruder, a member of Clan Gregor taken prisoner at the Battle of Dunbar in 1650, who wound up being transported to Maryland in 1651 as a prisoner. he worked off his indentiure and then set about establishing himself and raising a family. He was right successful at both as there are one heck of a lot of American Gregors descended from him.

I have mentioned my two favorite greatgrandfathers before, one the son of slave owners who fought for the Union, was disowned by his family, and spent the rest of his life in the First Regiment of Artillery at posts all over this Nation. The other was a townie from Alexandria, Virginia, whose family owned no slaves but who left Alexandria to join the Fourth Virginia Cavalry when Federal troops invaded his hometown in April of 1861. He fought all through the War, was wounded 2 or 3 times, and wound up as the Color Sergeant for the regiment. At the surrender of the Fourth Virginia, he tucked the Regimental Standard, a Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, under his tunic and carried it off of the surrender field rather than turn it over to the Yankees. I have it yet and, somewhere in the Archives of BladeForums, is a picture of me and another member holding it up so that Ken Cox could see it. He never signed his Oath of Allegiance to the United States so that he never got his citizenship back. An Unreconstructed Rebel as in the song "I'm a Good Ol' Rebel."

The importance to me of this is the sense of history that it gives me. When I have held that flag, I feel as if I am reaching back through time to take my Greatgrandfather's hand. I feel the same way when I hold my other Greatgrandfather's dress sword or when I go to the Goody Parsons' website and read about her persecution and prosecution as a witch near Salem in the late 17th Century. History is very real and alive to me, not something dead and gone. Perhaps that is why I have become so enthsiastic about re-enacting and living history. And the family heritage puts me in touch with that history in most personal of ways. I doubt that I can describe to someone who has never felt it just how I feel.

Perhaps this story can give an idea. Some years ago, I took the flag down to a meeting of the Fourth Virginia Cavalry Regiment, Reconstituted. This is a re-enactment group based in Prince William County, VA. They re-enact the Late War Period and they had never been able to find what the Regimental Standard looked like so that they could replicate it. They were ever so happy to see my family's flag and they measured, sketched, and photographed both sides of it. But there was this one man about my age who kept walking around it and saying, very quietly, "Just grand, ain't this just grand." I asked him if he wanted to kneel or to sit on the floor where the flag had been spread out on a sheet and to hold a part of it. He eagerly took me up on the offer. As he knelt there, tears came to his eyes and he entered into an almost religious state. When he was done, he told me that his greatgrandfather had served in the Fourth Virginia and that is why he was re-enacting that regiment. He said that holding a corner of the flag made him feel as if he was holding his greatgrandfather's hand and that he had found it profoundly moving. In that, I could only agree.

 

[allenC]

What makes you an expert on what Jews consider themselves?

Nothing.
In fact, I never claimed to be an "expert" on anything.
Did you think that I had?

How would you know what the majority of Jews "seem" to consider ourselves and what do you think "chosen" means?

Only my own experiences and from what I've seen, heard, and read.
Why do you ask?

Your chosen people remark has connotations of the Mel Gibson variety. If thats your feelings have the balls to say it.

Don't be silly.
What Gibson said and what I said are not even remotely similar.
Read the bible...especially Deuteronomy.

If you were offended by my remark, then you did not understand it.
I'm not sure that being a jew and an atheist at the same time is even possible.
Can one be a christian and an atheist all at the same time?

Do you consider "jew" to be an ethnicity or a faith?

 

[Emanuel]

Being Jewish is being part of a family. Sometimes you're born into the family, thus you're Jewish by "blood", in other words your ethnicity is Jewish. If you choose not to follow the more religious of our family's traditions and beliefs, that's your choice though, you can be an atheist.

LarryB can be an atheist and Jewish, his atheism does not cancel out his ethnicity. Infact, do you know of anything that can erase your ethnicity?

Ofcourse not.

Othertimes you can be invited into our family, in other words convert to Judaism. You'll be seen as much part of our family as any other member, it doesn't matter that you're not ethnically Jewish.

============================

Genetic evidence again links Jews to their ancient tribe
By Judy Siegel
(November 20) - Genetic evidence continues to provide additional proof to the claims that the Jewish people are descended from a common ancient Israelite father: Despite being separated for over 1,000 years, Sephardi Jews of North African origin are genetically indistinguishable from their brethren from Iraq, according to The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
They also proved that Sephardi Jews are very close genetically to the Jews of Kurdistan, and only slight differences exist between these two groups and Ashkenazic Jews from Europe.
These conclusions are reached in an article published recently in the American Journal of Human Genetics and written by Prof. Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University (HU) and Hadassah-University Hospital in Ein Kerem.
Others involved are German doctoral student Almut Nebel, Dr. Marina Faerman of HU, Dr. Dvora Filon of Hadassah-University Hospital, and other colleagues from Germany and India.
The researchers conducted blood tests of Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Kurdish Jews and examined their Y chromosomes, which are carried only by males. They then compared them with those of various Arab groups - Palestinians, Beduins, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese - as well as to non-Arab populations from Transcaucasia - Turks, Armenians and Moslem Kurds.
The study is based on 526 Y chromosomes typed by the Israeli team and additional data on 1,321 individuals from 12 populations. The typing of the Jewish groups was performed at the National Genome Center at HU's Silberman Institute of Life Sciences.
The Fertile Crescent of the Middle East was one of the few centers in which the transition from hunting-gathering to permanent settlement and agriculture took place. Genetic studies suggest that migrating Neolithic farmers dispersed their technological innovations and domesticated animals from the Middle East towards Europe, North Africa and Southwest Asia.
Studies of Y chromosomes have become powerful tools for the investigation of the genetic history of males, since these chromosomes are transmitted from fathers to sons.
Surprisingly, the study shows a closer genetic affinity by Jews to the non-Jewish, non-Arab populations in the northern part of the Middle East than to Arabs. These findings are consistent with known cultural links that existed among populations in the Fertile Crescent in early history, and indicate that the Jews are direct descendants of the early Middle Eastern core populations, which later divided into distinct ethnic groups speaking different languages.
Previous investigations by the HU researchers suggested a common origin for Jewish and non-Jewish populations living in the Middle East. The current study refines and delineates that connection.
It is believed that the majority of today's Jews - not including converts and non-Jews with whom Jews intermarried - descended from the ancient Israelis that lived in the historic Land of Israel until the destruction of the Second Temple and their dispersal into the Diaspora.
The researchers say that a genetic analysis of the chromosomes of Jews from various countries show that there was practically no genetic intermixing between them and the host populations among which they were scattered during their dispersion - whether in Eastern Europe, Spain, Portugal or North Africa.
A particularly intriguing case illustrating this is that of the Kurdish Jews, said to be the descendants of the Ten Tribes of Israel who were exiled in 723 BCE. to the area known today as Kurdistan, located in Northern Iraq, Iran and Eastern Turkey. They continued to live there as a separate entity until their immigration to Israel in the 1950s. The Kurdish Jews of today show a much greater affinity to their fellow Jews elsewhere than to the Kurdish Moslems.

 

[shaldag]

Genetics is one thing, identity perhaps another.

Orthodox Jewish law would consider Larry (atheist or not) to be just as Jewish as the Rabbi with the biggest beard and sidelocks in Brooklyn or Israel.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

just as Jewish as the Rabbi with the biggest beard and sidelocks

I guess that means I'm OK, too, even if I have a short beard and no sidelocks. I've got a few lockbacks, though ... oops, no knife content allowed in Community ... sorry, Ken ...

 

[maximus otter]

It's a bird! It's a plane! Oy gevalt! it's...

maximus "Nudnik" otter

 

[Esav Benyamin]

We have to update that picture.
My beard is much grayer now.