how long Japanese short sword handle?????????

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Lets say that I plan to make a smaller Japanese sword,,,,tip to butt end, 20 inches long....

ok...everyone with me?

But how long would be the handle?

The Wally hayes video shows a Katana handle at 12 inches long for a cutting blade that is around 27 inches long...(40 inches tip to butt end)

if Im about to design a weapon that is 1/2 the length of the Hayes Katana,,,then the handle sould be just 1/2 too?

That makes it a 6 inch handle?....do we see japanese short swords with 6 inch handles?

that would give me a blade of around 14 inches,,,,,sound right to you guys????????
 
Wait a minute. You have me confused. Are you talking about 20" LOA or blade length. I have never seen a Wakashashi with a blade 14". That's Tanto territory and generally they aren't considered swords.

The shortest one I've ever made was a 17" blade and an 8" handle. The reason for the longish handle is that they are not swung like a baseball bat, rather levered using one hand to guide and act as the fulcrum and the other to provide the power.

Tanto's on the other hand, are used with a fairly conventional cutting action, generally with one hand and some have longish blades.

Think of the three weapons, Katana, Wakashashi and Tanto as rifle, shotgun and pistol. They are used based on the range, room size if indoors and particular target.

I don't know if I answered your question but in short, if it's a short sword, 6"is a little short.
 
Ummm,,,,I decided to go with a 7 inch handle,,,,,and the whole thing, end to end is just 20 inches long,,,,,

The reason for making it a 20 inch...(Japanese long knife/short sword?) are because the water quench is ahead of me , and I have never done one before,,,I want to do a dry run a few times with a 20 incher, before I bump up to the full katana....

On the next one I make,,,,I will want to know what were the real lengths of Japanese handles given the total 20 length Im stuck with.....?
 
That makes sense!
BTW, you will find that there are no real lengths. There is a certain minimum length you need but after that they can go wild. There are also many different types of Katanas.

It leaves a lot of room for research.
 
A 7" handle sounds about right for 20" OAL (so 13" blade).
Try going to Bugei Trading site and go thru their selections of swords and tantos. Some models have more handle-to-blade offerings than others.

Real short ones, called "kwaiken" (dirks) have from 4" to about 6": blades and are about 8 to 10" OAL. Some were "yari" or lance heads mounted like tantos These were typically worn inside the kimono often by women, and used as samuari for real close quarters work. See:
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/unji.htm
 
The rough guide is that tanto (under 12" blade) have a one hand grip, wakizashi (12" - 24") have a hand and a half long grip, and katana (24" and longer) have a two and a half hand long grip. You can check out my website for some ideas on 'variations on a common theme.'

Darryl
 
ok,,,,then,,,how long is a one-hand grip?....

Im not sure how the One-hand grip with this Hayes-type sword Im making will work out,,,you see in the video by Hayes that is my pattern, he puts this weird knot at the top right behind the guard,,,,that takes up about an inch,,,and Im not sure it will be a good part of the hand hold on this blade, or if it will push the hand back that inch?....

My handle is 7 inches long,,,,it "looks" about right,,,but Im not sure it would be concidered a "real" japanese type weapon due to the shorter handle....

I keep thinking of the Japanese Samori guys in the movies,,,didnt they have two different types of swords stuck into their belts?...one was a shorter sword,,,I would like to know the lengths,,,,not only of the blades, but the lengths of the handles, because I seem to remember them as haveing almost the same size handles,,,,

right?
 
on a tanto of traditional design, i would say the handle fall into 4 3/4" range. it seems short but the tang was only about 2/3 the length of the handle. i guess they didnt feel the need for a full tang, because its only common purpose was for the suicide ceramony, the hari kari.(didnt spell it right, i know)
 
For the Wak...short sword I use 8ish inches and for the Katana 10 inches +- depending on the sword.
I've seen Tachi's with a 17" handle.
 
What I posted was the general rule. There is also a standard exception, that being that the general rule has more exceptions than rules.

There are no 'set' standards. Anything less that 24" in the blade is a wakizashi, unless it's under 12", in which case it's a tanto. There are only two or three exceptions to that rule; not many. On what you're doing, a 7" handle is fine. One of my favourites is a 21/7; it's a solid little piece. You may well need to modify quite a few points in order to get the balance right. If you're not using metal tsuba, fuchi, kashira, etc, you're going to need to pull the balance back somehow, other wise you'll be cutting with the equivalent of a sharpened sledge hammer...

Darryl
 
as this is my "dry-run" blade,,,Im going to make it the same way as Hayes shows how to make his Katana design.,,,,,,,this means it will have that full Katana type guard,,,,,This will also be a "Full-Tang" design as well....the full tang will be drilled full of holes to make it lighter....

Oh,,,I have another question:

In the Video Mr Hayes uses something called Kidex....for the handle slabs,,,,he says that are only .080 thick,,,,,but he also says I can use wood if I want..

But I dont see how I could get wood that thin,,,,so my question is....
"Given that the wood will not be seen as it is covered with the wrapping,,,what should be the over-all thickness of the handle?....

The tang steel is 3/8th thick now,,,,,I did not intend to thin down the tang steel...But with the thickness of 3/8 inch of the steel, would it work to have wood be 1/4 inch thick sections and then have the wrapping on top of that,,,Im not too thick by then am I???
 
I got a measurement rule from a book on Kendo instruction I have. It is for chosing the proper handle/tsuka length for a Shinai or Iaito (practice sword). A picture would help here really nicely, right?

The length: Hold your arm straight out and then bend the elbow up forming an 'L'. The tip of the tsuka is placed on the inside of the elbow joint and while gripping the handle, and the sword is facing you, there is no gap between the index finger and the guard/tsuba (sort of like Statue of Liberty pose). The hand is relaxed and there is slight separation between the forefinger and middle finger, almost like the shooting hand/trigger finger position while holding a rifle.

SO..... I took my sword and held it just that way (similar to the way you hold a rifle against the inside of the elbow joint): about 14" (which makes mine about 3" shorter than what I would need).

Substitute a 2" diameter wood stick, raise the arm as described and hold the stick in the crook of the elbow. (There is a gap of about 1.5" from the base thumb knuckle to the tsuba). Measure the distance from the second finger joint on the forefinger (which would be against the tsuba) and the bend in the elbow.

Then I tried to figure a few alternates:
Bend the elbow in an 'L' and make a clenched fist held as if placing a stick horizontal to your head, top of the fist is horizontal to the ground. Measure from the forefinger flat at the knuckle to the elbow and add 2".

Lay your hand down on a table with your hand in a relaxed opened position resting as if you were holding a pistol. Measure from the elbow crook to the second joint of the forefinger.

I get about 14" all 3 ways. As human anatomy is approximately the same proportions for nearly everyone, I figure they could work for others.
 
Thanks for the posting twisted bits....

Once I have my wife read it and then tell me what you meant, (it was Way, way over my head..LOL), I will use your information to have a 2nd look at my own handle lengths....

But as for the Kendo book you got handy.....Im in Kendo too,,,but I have not found many books here in northern North Dakota to buy in the book stores on Kendo,,,so whats the books name and is it new?...is it carried by Barn&Noble?
 
ok,,,the little woman has helped me understand better now...

I used my own Shinai and held it as you listed,,,and found it fit real well....the handle length of the Shinai is about 13 inches,,,so on my first Katana that I will soon start on I will go with what the Wally Hayes KATANA vides shows , that being a 12 inch handle, (close enough for me)

BUT back to the real question,,,What is the offical length of handle for a long Japanese fighting knife that from the tip of the point to the butt end of the handle is 20 inches?

The handle I made for my first such weapon is 7 inches,,,it seems correct to my eye, but it would be nice to know what is the real japanese length?
 
Have not gotten into it that much, just learning myself. Presently looking for a dojo.
The book is: "Kendo The Difinitive Guide" by Hiroshi Ozawa.
Also have "Bokken, Art of the Japanese Sword" by Dave Lowry. I got them at The B&N main store at Union Square here in NY. They have a few books. Another is Flashing Steel (don't have author's name). They're on the website.

BTW try Sword Forum Int'l: http://forums.swordforum.com/index.php?s=
 
I too am just new to Kendo....
I had a hard time finding a Kendo teacher....while there are plenty of fighting arts dogos in the different strip malls in my town, NONE will teach me Kendo or Kumdo alone,,,they all want to have me sign up for the full Karate lessons, and then just at the end of a 2 hour class, sneek in a little Kendo time...

Well,,,thats not my bag,,,,so I looked and looked and at last found a Black Belt that is a old Kendo teacher but does not teach it anymore,,,,I get private one-on-one lessons from him.

We talked about what i wanted to learn,,,,he said he would be able to teach me the stuff I was interested in as we dont have a real class going, so I asked him to teach me how to really FIGHT with a Katana.

Not just fight useing the Kendo rules,,,,but really learn the ways that real Samori learned how to fight with the Katana....

This means that Im learning how to block, (almost never done in kendo) and how to twist, grab the other guys sword, and strike the legs or whereever a target is...

Its great fun!,,,But its a bit wild,,,the amount of targets is huge at any one time,,,,the amount of places the other guy can hit on me are huge....I like the idea of learning how to block/turn/strike....instead of the endless hits on MEN. DO, etc....

anyway, thats for the heads-up on that kendo book,,,I will have to ask around here for it...
 
Just to jump back in on this one; the measurement rules you posted aren't terribly accurate, historically speaking. If that were the case, we'd expect that the average Samurai, Daimyo, etc, was only about four and a half feet tall. The general rule is two and a half hands for katana. We do find the occassional 'long' handle, but historically speaking, that's still only about twelve inches. There are a number of 14" handles still around, but they are of exceptional rarity, and generally mounted on swords that don't look like they were intended to be used; the proverbial 'Freudian' reasons. ;)

Darryl
 
My Shinai has a 13 inche long handle...as far as I know, thats what all Shinai are because I didnt order a different size handle , but just got the normal handle on a normal Shinai ..

That being the case,,,I believe that when I try to make my first Katana I will go with a 12 inch handle for a 40 inch over-all Katana (tip to butt end of handle)


But,,,,Im going to make a 2nd shorter sword, actually a long Japanese knife,,,about 20 inches in total....thats the weapon I am seeking information as to the length of the handle....

The thing will be no more than 20 inches from end to end,,,How long of handle with the guard?
 
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