How much force do I use to remove the burr?

I'm sorry but "snapping a wire edge off in one motion; where the wire edge is positioned away from you and the blade is held at 50 or even 60 degrees" is an exceptionally poor burr removal method. Your basic idea is just to make an extremely obtuse microbevel and shear the burr off and quite frankly its a terrible one.

Asides from now having a blunt microbevel , you have shorn the burr off , this leaves a much more jagged edge than one created by just cleaning it up on stones (or a belt sander for that matter) cleanly in the first place.

As for my experience stropping I have a much more technical perspective on the matter than yourself and I study cutting performance and micrographs of my work in detail. I can sharpen a knife start to finish using nothing but strops , I have and regularly use over 30 different strops , with abrasives ranging from 160 grit up to 1,200,000 million grit. You are talking with someone who will spend hours at stropping a knife to chase perfection. Can I remove burrs with a strop. Of course , but I am here to tell you that you get far superior results by going into the strop with a burr free edge in the first place.


-gim·mick [gim-ik] - noun
-an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.

Your particular gimmick called the ERU is the very definition of the word. By prettying it up with the anondization , the leather case and saying its made in America you are fulfilling the very definition of a gimmick. You are trying to draw attraction to it over all the competitors in the carbide scraper market, and yet it still provides no usefull benefits over a simple stone aside from being pretty and costing more than one. But it has all the drawbacks of every other carbide scraper on the market (aside from the adjustable degree settings , a moot point with 60 degree microbevels though). You don't see this as a drawback as apparently you prefer the jagged/microserreated edge it leaves behind as opposed to a cleanly apexed burr free edge.
 
You really use 1,200,000 million grit; my my that is truly a fine grit. I know a guy who polished his car so much he wore the paint off. Pointless!

I must thank you for your have bought some humor into my life today, I am in your debt.

Fred
 
Can we play nice here!?! I didn't open this thread to start a war. I opened this thread to tap the expertise of this forum and get the most out of my knives.
 
Sadden said:
...you that you get far superior results by going into the strop with a burr free edge in the first place.
Click to expand...

I do agree with this ^, one can and should work toward getting the burr in its entirety on the stone.


Sadden said:
Your particular gimmick called the ERU is the very definition of the word. By prettying it up with the anondization , the leather case and saying its made in America you are fulfilling the very definition of a gimmick. You are trying to draw attraction to it over all the competitors in the carbide scraper market, and yet it still provides no usefull benefits over a simple stone aside from being pretty and costing more than one. But it has all the drawbacks of every other carbide scraper on the market (aside from the adjustable degree settings , a moot point with 60 degree microbevels though). You don't see this as a drawback as apparently you prefer the jagged/microserreated edge it leaves behind as opposed to a cleanly apexed burr free edge.
Click to expand...



I do not agree with this ^. The difference between a tuned carbide scraper and a cheap one off the shelf is a wide gulf. The ERU performed better than the carbide scraper I tore apart and tuned up, with the added benefit of being adjustable.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-(with-micrographs)?highlight=carbide+scraper

You're speaking out of turn re a tool you have zero first hand experience of. Normally I wouldn't bother to respond to this sort of exchange, but I've been on the receiving end re my Washboard a few times and its just plain annoying. People should reserve judgement till they have enough info to go by. Then one can make a call based on the merits or shortcomings, not a bunch of assumptions.

There was a time I thought all a steeling could do was raise a burr or fold an edge, had to eat a lot of my foot on that one - have been a lot more circumspect with my assumptions since...
 
It comes down to what works best for the individual. No matter who says what you have take the opinions and methods suggested and try them yourself until your satisfied with the result.
 
Anyone who has first hand knowledge is encouraged to comment, what ever the subject is. Making assumptions, because of personal bias is uncalled for; it detracts from your overall comments and in doing so you taint what should be a collective of honest impressions from actually usage.
Inventors improve on existing products and ideas and occasionally create something completely new. Its why inventors invent. Inventions are like children to an inventor and like children, they don't come about in a moment of inspiration, its a process. You have a great deal of sweat blood and money invested; just like raising a child :)
When someone is critical of your child, never having met the little tike, it tends rub them the wrong way.

Sorry for the dust up and interupting the flow of the thread, Fred
 
Sadden said:
\ ...that you get far superior results by going into the strop with a burr free edge in the first place.
Click to expand...

I also second that. I believe in edge leading strokes to remove the burr as much as possible. There are times (or rather steels) that don't allow that easily and a strop is a welcome helper.

Clang! said:
Can we play nice here!?! I didn't open this thread to start a war. I opened this thread to tap the expertise of this forum and get the most out of my knives.
Click to expand...

2nd that also - I often get tangled between opinions and want to stand my ground and get somewhat upset, ironic etc. But, this is supposed to be fun - for the most part. And even if it is a part of our profession, being neutral is a common advise in psychology and we should all consider it more.

HeavyHanded said:
I do not agree with this ^. The difference between a tuned carbide scraper and a cheap one off the shelf is a wide gulf. The ERU performed better than the carbide scraper I tore apart and tuned up, with the added benefit of being adjustable.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-(with-micrographs)?highlight=carbide+scraper

You're speaking out of turn re a tool you have zero first hand experience of. Normally I wouldn't bother to respond to this sort of exchange, but I've been on the receiving end re my Washboard a few times and its just plain annoying. People should reserve judgement till they have enough info to go by. Then one can make a call based on the merits or shortcomings, not a bunch of assumptions.

There was a time I thought all a steeling could do was raise a burr or fold an edge, had to eat a lot of my foot on that one - have been a lot more circumspect with my assumptions since...
Click to expand...

Even though I can not speak for or against the ERU, I tend to welcome inventions and certainly support their distribution for trials. My profession is in the medical field and we rely on "evidence based medicine". We should do that in the cutlery world too!
 
As far as evidence goes, I dressed the Arkansas stones using sandpaper and used very light pressure for removing the burr. I got an old Buck knife to the to the "bleeding before I know I've been cut" sharpness in only a few minutes.

Also, another lesson learned: there is such a thing as too polished of an edge. I use the Buck knife for knotwork and I should have stopped with the medium stone for a toothier edge instead of polishing with the hard stone. Great for cleaving line against a cutting board, not so much for slicing.
 
So I reviewed some of the videos using the ERU and have a few thoughts on the matter. My immediate disclaimer is that I have NOT used the device, so take my comments for what they are worth.

The device seems well made. That it looks good and has a nice case and is made to high tolerances is not gimmicky. It is just a good product presentation. I can't and wouldn't fault that.

I don't see the device as a strop at all. A sharpener - yes. A deburring device - yes. But not a strop. While the edge is drawn through the device in a trailing stroke, it is not edge trailing but running along the length of the edge. Semantics perhaps, but worth clarifying.

So the device operates based on a few premises. The main premise is that you are generating a wire edge and removing it. The second premise is that the carbides are in the range of (correct me from memory if I'm misstating here) of either 300 or 600 grit. Will the device remove a wire edge? I trust it will. No argument here. It will probably remove a rolled edge too.

I do like the ability of the device to set an angle over a wide range of angles and the adjustment tool also helps the user to center the blade. It could probably be used on an asymmetric blade successfully with some extra degree of skill on the user's part.

Now let's look at the criticisms of the device. CERTAINLY I understand having my devices criticized. We are all sensitive to this.

I know Sadden. He is good friend of mine and a superb sharpener. He doesn't use a belt grinder on his knives but mostly various Japanese synthetic and natural stones, etc etc.

I mention this because there is a common tendency for users of belt grinders to generate burrs after each grit and break off the burrs or even fully form a continuous burr or wire edge and break it off using various techniques. It is inherent in the process. Reaching a point where the edges just touch on a motor driven sharpening device especially a fixed speed device is VERY difficult.

Having seen numerous micrographs of burrs being removed by breaking them off, there is a fracture line where the work hardened area of the wire edge that is broken off is created. At this point the edges don't truly meet and instead you have a jagged fracture line instead. This is commonly interpreted as a 'toothy' edge. At a grit level of 600 grit, the scratch pattern of an abrasive surface is quite coarse as well and this fracture line is not that much different from an edge where the 600 grit scratches go all the way to a completed edge. So in the range of an edge of this level of finish, this device is a reasonable solution. It is also going to be a more reasonable solution for softer less abrasion resistant steels - many Buck knives, Chinese Cleavers like the CCKs and softer kitchen knives and many butcher knives.

Now if your edge is say a 5000 grit or finer edge, this device - just like a ribbed steel will just take the edge off, undoing your work. Anything at 600 grit would too. It is no more a criticism of the device than criticizing a 600 grit stone being used on a 5k edge. So if you routinely are sharpening harder steels at finishes of 5k or MUCH finer, this would not be the device of choice. It would be the wrong tool for the job.

So if you routinely produce wire edges and wish to remove them, this is worth considering. If you don't rely on making wire edges as part of your technique, it is unnecessary and possibly a detriment to your goals and approach to producing a refined edge. I think this largely explains the fundamental differences in sharpening philosophy and why one approach views the device favorably and another approach doesn't.

I hope that my views help to synthesize these two diverse viewpoints to a higher level of understanding all around.

---
Ken
 
Ken,

If Sadden had made the post you've made here, originally, my followup would have been; " your comments are well thought out and well stated and we are in agreement overall.

We may be splitting hairs :) or it may be a matter of semantics when discussing the merits of the ERU being used as a strop. I understand stropping to mean the edge, being in a sharpened condition, is then "rubbed" along the actual apex of the knife in order to bring as much of the apex into alignment as possible so the maximum cross section of the edge contacts the item being cut.
When you sharpen using an ERU the final step is to open the "V" to max. and slide the blade through, in this process only the apex itself is making contact with the abrading surface. Possibly my word choice is not correct, but the result of doing this is the edge becomes appreciable sharper; just as one would expect when stropping. Because the "V" is fixed there is no chance that the edge will be rounded over as when using a strop from side to side.

If Sadden would have kept in mind that this is a field sharpener, most of all and these claims are stated openly everywhere; he might have made more useful comments instead of insults mixed with slander of the invention.

In my shop, the thought of polishing past 1500 grit on just about anything is pointless other than as an exercise in how to polish something.
But then I'm a knife maker and knife user as well as an inventor. If a blade I build with finely tuned geometry will not chop an arm off with one stroke even @ a 600 grit finish; I did something wrong and it has nothing to do with polish.
When I think of field sharpener my first thoughts are, is it portable, is it convenient, can it be used on a wide range of edge geometry and does it work as stated. All of these things are true in the ERU's case. I am not in the habit of stating false hoods or producing gimmickry for that matter.

I have PM'd Sadden and ask him to restate his comments, I can forgo an apology ; he does not have any first hand knowledge and so his statements are spurious.

Your comments Ken, are well received even without you having first hand knowledge of this sharpener. The English language is a wonderful tool. It can be used to injure or sooth with just minor changes in punctuation and word choice.

Regards, Fred

A small after thought; I understand people being skeptical; "V" style sharpeners have been ruining blades for years. But this is where inventors come in, they see a failing or limited device or tool and through their inventive nature they bring it to a new level, they recreate it and make it better. In the case of the ERU this concept has been made far far better. I think you understand how this process works, its inherent in your statements; Sadden sadly, does not see it in this manner.



















v'
 
From what I observed on other carbide scraper and the ERU, there is no breaking off of the burr. If the corners are sufficiently crisp, the burr is carved or sheared off, not broken. There could be some "tearing" but in the context of a shearing action, it cuts a pretty clean edge. The bulk of what's wrong with the carbide pull through is not inherent in the basics of how they work.
 
Well the term strop is what software engineers call an overloaded term - It has too many definitions. Some ONLY consider a piece of leather a strop. Some only refer to an edge trailing stroke as stropping without regard to the media. Adding a draw stroke across a carbide surface is yet another definition to add to the pile. I believe your definition could easily describe the motion on a sharpening stone as well. Personally I prefer the term abrasion as a single all inclusive term for any abrasive used to grind shape or polish. Others only consider stropping to be used with either very fine abrasives or just the abrasives present in a piece of leather. It is ultimately a hopeless term :)

The final ERU step is what I consider a microbevel. One seldom noted fact about microbevels is that if the edge is 'almost' touching but not quite - which quite often happens during burr removal, going to a more obtuse angle often 'forces' the two sides of the microbevel to meet pretty quickly. My guess is that this helps explain the result (increased sharpness) of putting a final touch with a wider angle. You might experiment with not opening it up all the way but just a few degrees more to get a similar result with a few more strokes and still maintain an edge closer to your original acute angle.

I'll save rounding effects using a strop (piece of leather) for another discussion. Not all strops are the same - just like all carbide sharpeners aren't the same.

While you can do a lot with a 1500 grit edge and it meets or exceeds your needs, do consider that this isn't a universally held belief. Personally, for many of my kitchen and pocket knives as well as hunting knives, I routinely use a much finer finish. It's rare that I don't exceed a 4000 grit edge on almost all of my knives and often go more than two orders of magnitude past that.

I do think it best to leave this topic as you and Sadden having widely divergent points of view and not expecting any sorts of restatements from either of you. It's just different strokes for different folks.

It's far more fun to discuss splitting real hairs :)

---
Ken
 
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