How much of it is style?

You've managed to find a few that aren't too horribly fugly, anyway:)
I dare say that Delta Foxtrot looks like it'd be as beautiful to the hand as to the eye. It sure has been showing up to tease me in pics of your outings a lot since you got it!
 
OwenM said:
You've managed to find a few that aren't too horribly fugly, anyway:)
I dare say that Delta Foxtrot looks like it'd be as beautiful to the hand as to the eye. It sure has been showing up to tease me in pics of your outings a lot since you got it!
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Yeah, there have been a few. The Delta Foxtrot is one of those that has it all in my opinion; it's stout, versatile, very comfortable, and beautiful to look at. It definitely gets a lot of quality time with me in the field and in the kitchen.
 
I like what kage said (i have remarkably similar experiences - almost unbelieveably similar).

I heard something a decade or 3 ago - 'function is beauty's master'. Meaning, beauty is defined by an items functionality - to do the job it's primarily supposed to do.

If gear/tools/etc are supposed to serve an important purpose, then aesthetics must follow the object's ability/capacity to perform that function well. This really isn't a problem for me because i've embraced this reality for so long that when i see a beautifully handled knife i know those lovely wood handles simply are not as durable and environment resistant as synthetic ones and i think of it as something which will usually be in some cabinet for nostalgia. They look nice, but for me a nicer looking knife is the one i can depend on every time and know it will simply work - no muss no fuss. These ugly mugs are the beauties that are in my gear bags every time.
 
THe first time I get gear- value and effectiveness are paramount. When it comes time to upgrade I look to aesthetics as I can usually afford a bit better and be pickier about what it looks like. Honestly for me if I can find it in red it goes home with me. Not to say I'll buy less quality if in my color but all other things equal I choose looks. I bought 2 Salaverria Damascus Nessmuks because of their beauty and the fact others vouched for the quality of the knives and I found my Koyote Leuko chopper to be just as beautiful, just in a different way. Both beautiful, both effective, me happy.
 
I tend to go with the traditional gear because thats what I was raised on. Think West Texas meets army surplus. I have tried and do use some of the new tech gear and it certainly has found its way into my emergency gear but when I'm going out for fun I still pack the one piece ash canoe paddle, the Estwing hatchet,Case "54" trapper and my Grannie's old Green River butcher knife. It still works just fine!--KV
 
I love all the traditionalists with their buckskins driving in the SUV to get out of the city into the woods lol.

You can never be 100% traditional, traditional to what? 100 years ago? or 1000 years ago? Traditional to Canada or traditional to your Irish great, great, great Grandfather back before Canada was ever created?

Use what you want to the degree you want and don't fret about it. I'd like to play mountain man with canvas and all but if I did I'd still take all the modern survival gear such as a plastic Fox40 whistle and a SPOT unit if I had one.

If you want to re-create a period look but not be without modern survival gear then get a leather pouch which will hide all your orange coloured plastic gear; no one, including yourself, need to look at plastic for the length of your trip unless you need to use your survival kit.

Want to carry a nylon pack but also a carbon steel knife with a wood handle in a leather sheath? Then carry it, your trip is for you and no one else.
 
I tend to go with the traditional gear because thats what I was raised on. Think West Texas meets army surplus. I have tried and do use some of the new tech gear and it certainly has found its way into my emergency gear but when I'm going out for fun I still haul out the one piece white ash canoe paddle,old canvas B.S. backpack, Estwing hatchet,Case "54" trapper and my Grannie's old Green River butcher knife. They still work just fine and help me maintain a feeling of connection to my past!--KV--oops! double post
 
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SirJames - you have said it perfectly!!!

If you like, carry/use it. I don't go to the mountains for anyone except myself (or when i'm working/leading a group out....).
 
Great posts by everyone. All I can add is, not all of the traditional gear works as good as some of the modern gear. But, not all the modern gear works as good as some of the traditional gear. Clear as mud, huh. ;)
 
I think lots of it is style and lots of it is fashion. Fashions and fads come and go. I think most of us have lived through the Rambo knife, the tanto, the nessie, the scandi, and whatever. Styles seem to be more enduring – the wanna be soldier, indian, cowboy, sack cloth and ashes primitive,
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. If that wasn't the case I'd expect a more eclectic mix of kit per individual.

I was talking with a guy the other day that wanted a bag with a trendy brand name on it. I found him a similar bag made from identical stuff for about £100 cheaper.

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I pointed out to him that it too was likely made in Asia, may be even using the same machinery, but the QA / QC was likely not so tight. But given it isn't a proper load carrying pack and likely only the stitching not as accurate as one might hope for who cares. Even if it was only held together with ready to complete yourself tacking stitches like a kit so what. It's a half an hour job on a machine to fix it up with top quality thread. That's an hourly rate well in excess of what I pay myself and about 20* the pittance he earns. He still wanted the big brand one for no other reason that I could discern other than the brand logo.
 
It is a fact that manufacturers make gear for more than one brand name company. I did a stint as a flour mill and you could watch the line of brand name X end and the store name Y started, no stopping of the mill and no changing of the flour, it just kept coming out as the Y bags followed right after the X bags. I've had co-workers at other jobs that report the same thing; one was a pickle company and another was a T-shirt company. My last job was working for a wholesaler and most of our product came from Thailand, the company owners saw that other companies could buy the same product made by the factory so they told the factory, "Here are some designs we created and you are to make them only for us".

Like your friend, there are some brand names I like, but they lose my loyalty when they change countries. Case in point: Carhartt, I have a vest made in USA but pants made in Mexico. Don't give me the song and dance about cost, you are charging me the same price for the Mexican made stuff that you charged me for the American made stuff. If you are taking jobs from Americans (the biggest buyer of Carhartt) because Mexico is WAY cheaper, then sell it to those now jobless Americans for WAY cheaper. The only people this is good for is the executives of the company. I'll only buy my Carhartt at used clothing stores and will not buy new, not at those prices for non-North American goods.

In Backpacker magazine they had an article on the industry in Viet Nam and they showed a photo of a book shelf and on each shelf were the folders of specs on many of the name brand packs: North Face, etc. This one manufacture made packs for several companies, with some of the companies having American overseers on site.

The company Brunton is known for compass and maybe binoculars too have a made in China battery lantern for sale with their name on it, the same lantern in the local Dollar stores. Princeton Tec also sells a squeeze light that you can also find in the dollar stores. Folks I am not talking about Chinese knock-offs, I've inspected both products and they are the same! In an age when almost everything is made in China it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that we are starting to find the same goods with different names on it.

Lee Valley, the tool company had an editorial in one of it's catalogs about how a factory they were in asked "What name do you want on it?" Meaning, do you want it to say Made In England? or Made in USA? The manufacture in question was willing to put any country on the tool and the reps from Lee Valley were there to see the die stamps for it. This is more rare, but there is little honor with international commerce these days.

A little off topic, but the last post caused me to share this with you.
 
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I've seen that as well SirJames -- even read that Backpacker article.

It's funny when you see people fight over which brand name is topos, and to stay away from the cheap knockoffs, when the "knockoffs" aren't knockoffs at all -- they are the same thing, made in the same factory with a different label.

And it flat pissed me off to read how they bragged about paying the Vietnamese workers a princely $15 a week, when they'd usually only make $10 a week. They charge us the same high prices as when they were made in the US, they screwed the American workers out of jobs, and IMO, they are screwing the Vietnamese, essentially making sure that they still have to live 6 people in a 10' x 10' apartment.
 
Alot of those Vietnamese workers would otherwise be living in a bamboo hovel sleeping in a hammock, but I agree. Substandard is the industry standard.
 
There sadly is a lot of outsourcing, but there are exceptions. I'm sure there are other examples, but I've personally experienced being at Kifaru in Colorado where they were sewing the packs and gear right on the premise. Nothing is manufactured elsewhere. Of course, stuff like that costs more. Unfortunately, I don't think most people still care about craftsmanship, they just want to accumulate more stuff. The less you spend on an item, the more other items you can buy. Sadly, the "he who dies with the most toys wins" mentality really does dominate, and manufacturers respond to this demand. If the demand really changed, so would the manufacturing.
 
You're right, and that's part of why I'm such a Kifaru and Duluth Pack -- for the moire traditional stuff -- whore.

That, plus it really is better. ;)

There's also plenty of good domestic knife makers -- production and custom.

And other gear as well. But like you said, not many people care anymore.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
You're right, and that's part of why I'm such a Kifaru and Duluth Pack -- for the moire traditional stuff -- whore.

That, plus it really is better. ;)

There's also plenty of good domestic knife makers -- production and custom.

And other gear as well. But like you said, not many people care anymore.
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Amen:thumbup:

Too bad more people don't care, then it would be easier to find. I was thinking about that today when I was walking through a Gander Mountain today. I realized that I wouldn't buy any of the brands of gear they actually sold in the store. It would be great if there was a store that sold Kifaru, RaiRiders, Russel Moccasins, etc., but I'm sure the problem is that the overhead on the inventory would be outrageous.
 
Hey, another artist perspective here-

Aesthetics matters. In the initial, surface, run, there's a couple considerations-

the mountain man aesthetic isn't the most "efficient" in terms of modern materials, but it hangs together well. if you go that route, then you do. It's your system

The ultralight modern aesthetic has a different focus, but it's a *system* as much as the mountain man style is.

An aesthetic- a style- often comes about because of a system. A system hangs together and works better.

One thing a lot of us do, but may not have expressed- is look at what we need something to do- function- and then pick a style and quality level that makes us feel good. We're not robots- enjoying a tool is important.

Enjoying a knife, or a piece of kit- gets heavily into style. But the "style" with an educated person isn't simply ... style- it's an educated sense of taste where the ergonomics and functionality are an integral part of the style.

Let me say that again-

An educated user's sense of taste is going to contain a vast knowledge of function and ergonomics in picking for style.


Yeah- 90% of what I wrench can be handled with a $3 chinese import cast adjustable wrench. But I CHOOSE the style of a classic bent handle forged piece because my "style" includes not just the other 10%, but the feel of the tool- how it handles- how much I can sense what I'm doing with my hands.

Another aspect to this that I'm going to get into- and this may ruffle a bit in some corners- is materials.

Take the initial bone handled slippy versus SAK thing. This brings to my mind materials. A lot of modern materials aren't used because they are intrinsically better, but because they are intrinsically cheaper to source on demand in quantity and form into a finished product.

That's pure manufacturer convenience and has dork all to do with actual performance. We all know that a natural material is not sub par because it is natural. Any good trail cyclist knows why a steel frame is preferable to aluminum. Any Lapp herder knows why natural handle materials work better in subzero cold.

Style, far too often in modern culture, means a difference between inexpensive (production costs) synthetic and "style filled" natural materials. Some materials- like a cloth based micarta- are hybrids. Or a leather bottomed and reinforced nylon pack- fuzzy lines, there.

Don't confuse style with a choice of materials based on performance of the materials.

I also haven't iterated my ergonomics rant in a bit, this is a perfect place for it-

Ergonomics used to mean the simplest handle to do the most work safely in the most varied manners. Nowdays, increasingly, it means locking a person into one approved method of doing one limited task. (Oddly, often leading to RSI)

I'll get off my stylistic soapbox or $3 ikea plastic bucket stool now. :D
 
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I tend to be more practical. Lots of a traditonal guys like slip joints and leather gear. I have no use for slip joints I prefer, something made with a lock. And I've always been partial to kydex sheaths and nylon gear.
 
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