How shallow is shallow? another 1095 question

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I've been reading that 1095 can be 'safely' quenched in water without cracking and get 'screaming balls hard' IF it is a certain thickness.

My question is if I were to only cut the profile from a 3/16" or 1/4" piece of 1095, and harden it before grinding bevels, would it harden deep enough to be able to grind the bevels and still have a 'screaming balls hard' knife?

I was thinking normalize 3x, then harden @ 1550F, 1 - 2 min soak, quench in 120F water and immediately temper with a torch checking temp with infra red thermometer, grind then complete the tempering process with two cycles in the oven.

I just realized that I said 'canola' when I meant water... edited.
 
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I must admit i have nightmares about 1095 and water. i cracked a really nice blade in water and it has haunted me ever since. i don't think you should heat treat the profile because you will be there all day grinding edge bevels and trying to keep the temp down. just don't give it a real thin edge.
 
I must admit i have nightmares about 1095 and water. i cracked a really nice blade in water and it has haunted me ever since. i don't think you should heat treat the profile because you will be there all day grinding edge bevels and trying to keep the temp down. just don't give it a real thin edge.

The last blade I water quenched, not surprisingly broke apart.

The thin edge hardens.

Thick edge cools slowly and shrinks.

The thicker, 2/3 of the knife that cools slowly shrinks and causes the thin, hard edge to break itself apart.

Must overcome this conundrum.

Could clay be the answer?

I don't mind taking a swipe over the belt and dunking in water if it means getting the characteristics I desire.
 
The terms shallow hardening and deep hardening are industrial terms. They refer to hardening a block of steel. In the thickness of any knife blade, the steel is fully martensite....and thus fully hardened.
What the term means to smiths is that the steel has a very short nose to avoid pearlite. If it cools at too slow a rate it won't harden right. Water, brine, and fast oil will cool simple steels above .80 Carbon content fast enough, but the severity of water and brine can crack thin sections (like a knife blade). The way around this is fully stress relieving the blade, and using the proper quenchant. The other way is to use a steel that has had some alloy ingredients added to retard the conversion speed. This is where steels like 15N20, L-6, O-1, and forging grade carbon steels ( like Aldo and Crucibles 1080FG) shine.
Stacy
 
I grind nearly all of my knives after heat treating, including 1080/1084. I don't see a difference with 1095. You're only trying to harden through 3/32" on each side of a 3/16" bar, shallow hardening in industry is measured from a 1" thickness of steel, from my understanding.
 
I was thinking normalize 3x, then harden @ 1550F, 1 - 2 min soak,


1575 is recommended normalizing temp. for 1095. I would do a cycle or two at 1575 then one or two at lower temps (1450 or so) to reduce grain size and homogenize.

1475 is recommended hardening temp. The only reason to soak 1095 for longer than it takes the entire blade to come up to temp is to break up carbides in the grain boundaries (already reduced if you normalize properly).

Water quench if it brings you happiness. It never brought me anything but regret...:o
 
1095 is a 10XX series steel and all the 10XX series are “shallow hardening”, I can’t remember where but I recently saw a thread where 1084 was referred to as “deep hardening”, and couldn’t figure that one out. All of these steels have a pearlite nose that requires less than 1 second to beat, and that is about as shallow hardening as it gets without losing the Mn and going old school. Which brings me to my next point, many ancient swords were in fact water quenched but they were made of the simplest iron-carbon material you could imagine thus water would work quite well since very little else could cool fast enough to avoid making pearlite, but virtually every modern steel, no matter how simple, has manganese. That manganese increases hardenability and has been the frustration of many a swordsmith who treated 1095 or 1084 as if it were tamahagane and ended up with pieces in water quenches.

The 10XX series is designated as “water quenching” because in heavy cross sections used by industry the only way to through harden it is to quench it in water. However in sections of ¼”, like a knife blade, it can be serious overkill. A successful quench has little to do with screamin balls hard as there is a maximum hardness achieved by complete martensite conversion and beyond that there is unnecessary stressing of the steel that will result in micro-fracturing, distortion and brittleness. The idea is to get as much martensite as you can with the gentlest quench that will accomplish that.

Shallow hardening steels will have a maximum depth that they can harden to with a given quench speed, and since a knife blade cross section is a wedge it has a varying degree of thickness and this is what causes a natural hamon to form when a certain distance for the edge exceeds the thickness the quenchant can overcome. Here is what I have observed with oils in a 1-1/8” wide blade ¼” at the spine and tapering all the way to the edge:

Slow quenchants (low temp salts, motor oil etc…) will harden to perhaps ¼” from the edge with mixed pearlite in the martensite.

Medium speed quenchants (Parks AAA, ATF etc...) will harden to perhaps 5/8” from the edge with mixed pearlite in the martensite.

Fast speed quenchants (Parks #50 and other fast oils) will harden to perhaps within 1/8” of the spine with pearlite mixed in the martensite only near the top of the hamon.

Water will of course harden such a blade all the way to the spine but with the speed to through harden ¼” the 1/16” edge will be shocked perhaps to the breaking point; ever notice how water quenched blades tend to crack at the edge?

All of these observations are based upon an austenitizing temp below 1500F and adjusting that temp will profoundly affect hardenability. The only thing that I would say is “wrong” in your approach is your soak temperature. 1550F is much too warm for 1095. The more carbon present the lower you want to keep you soak temperature. 1550F will increase hardenability to the point that you could get away with oils, and will definitely make water a very hazardous choice. Increasing the soak temp that much with .9%+ carbon will get you retained austenite and possibly grain growth.
Proper soak temperatures for 1095 are from 1475F to 1500F, with water hug the low side.
 
All I know is I wouldn't want to try to grind a fully hardened 1095 blade. Not only would it eat up belts like no tomorrow, but it would take quite a bit more effort to keep the tip and thinner sections cool enough to not ruin the HT.

The one time I went all-in with water was with a 15" blade. First water HT it hardened fine but took a very odd reverse recurve that I didnt like. I did it again and it went from a 1/4" tip-drop from the first HT to a HUGE 3/4" recurve before the blade sheared itself lengthwise along the hamon. That tip took an insane 1" curve. I've never seena blade rip itself in two like that....not even a crack, just completely delaminated lengthwise along the perfect curves of the hamon.
 
Hi David - you should try grinding hard once or twice, you might really like it. I grind all of the steels I work with hard, except for D2 because I hate it. 1084, 440C, 154CM/ATS, even S30V - they all grind fine after heat treat. Not much difference keeping them cool as any other steel, I don't high-heat temper any of them. I don't do a lot of very thick knives, for what it's worth, so I'm not grinding a lot of 15" long 1/4" thick blades or anything.

Kevin - I usually make a point of calling the higher maganese 10xx steels "deeper hardening", and it is meant as compared to lower maganese 10xx steels, not to imply that they are deep hardening in the sense that O1 or the like are. I hope that I'm not mistaken using the term in such a way.
 
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