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How sharp does your sebenza get compared to other knives?
- Thread starter JoHnYKwSt
- Start date
GigOne
Gold Member
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- Nov 27, 1999
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I've never been able to get, consistently, a super sharp edge on a Sebbie. And I've used just about every sharpener on the market, except an Edge Pro.
I can get one sharp. . .(the flat portion of the blade vs. the curved portion). . .but not the other.
I can get one sharp. . .(the flat portion of the blade vs. the curved portion). . .but not the other.
I use the SharpMaker on mine -- 30 deg. back bevel, 40-deg. edge.
As sharp as I can get my Striders' S30V.
My BG-42 Sebbie, though, was Mayonized -- and that thing is just scary sharp thanks to Mr. Mayo's tough-up....I'd probably have to send it back to him to get it that sharp again!
Allen
aka DumboRAT
As sharp as I can get my Striders' S30V.
My BG-42 Sebbie, though, was Mayonized -- and that thing is just scary sharp thanks to Mr. Mayo's tough-up....I'd probably have to send it back to him to get it that sharp again!
Allen
aka DumboRAT
In the spirit of this post (and because I'd completely forgotten about it! Doh!) I must confess that no, I can't get it quite as sharp as my RJ Martin nor "even" my Microtechs in S30V.
Allen
aka DumboRAT
PS: DBH, Mayo gives the Sebbies a whole new angle on life.
- Joined
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- 1,702
I can get it pretty damn sharp, but my Spydercos are always sharper like you said, and so are my Microtechs. Chris' edges are ground differently than Spyderco's or Microtech's I'd assume. I've never really used my sebenza for any serious cutting, but it seems like if i wanted to go slice a chunk off of a block of wood or big stick or whatever, my ATR or Military would do it better.
Hey, how come all you guys send your sebs to Mayo? I know some of you have him drill the handles. What does he do that makes them so much sharper?
Hey, how come all you guys send your sebs to Mayo? I know some of you have him drill the handles. What does he do that makes them so much sharper?
Do you guys think its the angle it comes from the factory or the heat treatment? Are the knives mentioned set at a more acute angle? I know my Spydercos and Buck Mayo are both set at 15 Degrees. I wish CRK would have their edges come at 15 degrees from the factory, but I'm sure there's a reason Chris has them come at 20 degrees. It just puzzles me and frustrates me that I cannot get the edge scary sharp.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
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- 17,562
JoHnYKwSt :
There is only one reason for this, the steel isn't durable enough to be functional with the lower angle and thus you trade off cutting ability and ease of sharpening to prevent chipping and denting. Considering the relative price of the Spyderco/Buck to a Sebenza you would expect the Sebenza to have better performance not worse.
This should not be a problem regardless of the edge angle unless the heat treatment on the blade is really poor which is unlikely. BG-42 and especially S30V are difficult to machine, and Reeves lower hardness on his S30V makes it even more difficult to sharpen compared to something like VG-10 a few points harder on a corrosponding Spyderco which will take a much crisper edge much faster.
-Cliff
There is only one reason for this, the steel isn't durable enough to be functional with the lower angle and thus you trade off cutting ability and ease of sharpening to prevent chipping and denting. Considering the relative price of the Spyderco/Buck to a Sebenza you would expect the Sebenza to have better performance not worse.
This should not be a problem regardless of the edge angle unless the heat treatment on the blade is really poor which is unlikely. BG-42 and especially S30V are difficult to machine, and Reeves lower hardness on his S30V makes it even more difficult to sharpen compared to something like VG-10 a few points harder on a corrosponding Spyderco which will take a much crisper edge much faster.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2002
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- 1,755
This thread is a real eye opener.
Cliff,
There is only one reason for this, the steel isn't durable enough to be functional with the lower angle and thus you trade off cutting ability and ease of sharpening to prevent chipping and denting.
____________________________________________________
Yes, exactly why CRK cannot market S30V at optimum Rc hardness. The Sebenza must cover all aspects of blade abuse. Remember the thread a few years ago when Spyderco introduced CPM 440V in the blue BF Native? We had 100+ posting on It was just a staple, and my blade chipped, therefore CPM 440V is not a good steel for knife blades, etc. If one the BF members had a chip out with their S30V blade the controversy would be similar.
We should think about edge geometry suitable for intended application. I am very interested in woodworking and find the angle for blade efficiency will vary up to 10 degrees depending upon the type of wood and hand use or with mallet. We have the Japanese laminated chisels and plane blades with high carbon at Rc 63-64 with geometry suitable for soft woods (Japanese woodworkers use almost exclusively soft woods) vs. the Western steel which is through hardened high carbon and alloys of A2 and S30V at Rc59-61, these chisels and planes are most popular for hard gnarly tough woods. The have higher angle bevels and are somewhat softer.
Woodworking is mainly push cutting however, we have many tools and planes that are designed for skew cutting angles into the wood, this lowers the actual angle for the bevel wrt the wood surface.
I have invested in a set of ceramic water stones manufactured by Shapton in Japan, they are from 120 grit to 15,000 grit. These are very hard cut steel very quickly and wear much less than the early Japanese water stones with clay binder. They are also tougher than the new Norton water stones (I also have sets of these stones for comparison). It is very simple to work a plane or chisel for 15-30 minutes,,,,stop and rehone for 2-3 min. then continue work at optimum efficiency.
We tend to rate knives for testing to destruction of the edge as received from the manufacturer. The initial edge bevel angles are a general starting point and should be adjusted for actual personal use. I would expect my Japanese chisels to chip out when pounded into hard knotted wood ,,,,it is not the fault of the steel ,,,,it is my fault for not using the tool as intended.
IMHO the Sebenza and other folders are designed for light to moderate cutting ,,,,,not chopping frozen wood or cattle bones.
Relative sharpness is a function of the users skills with the stones, belts, strop ,,,,not the grade of steel or Rc hardness.
Regards,
FK
There is only one reason for this, the steel isn't durable enough to be functional with the lower angle and thus you trade off cutting ability and ease of sharpening to prevent chipping and denting.
____________________________________________________
Yes, exactly why CRK cannot market S30V at optimum Rc hardness. The Sebenza must cover all aspects of blade abuse. Remember the thread a few years ago when Spyderco introduced CPM 440V in the blue BF Native? We had 100+ posting on It was just a staple, and my blade chipped, therefore CPM 440V is not a good steel for knife blades, etc. If one the BF members had a chip out with their S30V blade the controversy would be similar.
We should think about edge geometry suitable for intended application. I am very interested in woodworking and find the angle for blade efficiency will vary up to 10 degrees depending upon the type of wood and hand use or with mallet. We have the Japanese laminated chisels and plane blades with high carbon at Rc 63-64 with geometry suitable for soft woods (Japanese woodworkers use almost exclusively soft woods) vs. the Western steel which is through hardened high carbon and alloys of A2 and S30V at Rc59-61, these chisels and planes are most popular for hard gnarly tough woods. The have higher angle bevels and are somewhat softer.
Woodworking is mainly push cutting however, we have many tools and planes that are designed for skew cutting angles into the wood, this lowers the actual angle for the bevel wrt the wood surface.
I have invested in a set of ceramic water stones manufactured by Shapton in Japan, they are from 120 grit to 15,000 grit. These are very hard cut steel very quickly and wear much less than the early Japanese water stones with clay binder. They are also tougher than the new Norton water stones (I also have sets of these stones for comparison). It is very simple to work a plane or chisel for 15-30 minutes,,,,stop and rehone for 2-3 min. then continue work at optimum efficiency.
We tend to rate knives for testing to destruction of the edge as received from the manufacturer. The initial edge bevel angles are a general starting point and should be adjusted for actual personal use. I would expect my Japanese chisels to chip out when pounded into hard knotted wood ,,,,it is not the fault of the steel ,,,,it is my fault for not using the tool as intended.
IMHO the Sebenza and other folders are designed for light to moderate cutting ,,,,,not chopping frozen wood or cattle bones.
Relative sharpness is a function of the users skills with the stones, belts, strop ,,,,not the grade of steel or Rc hardness.
Regards,
FK
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
FK :
Yes so they should chose a more optimal steel.
To be frank, the levels of "abuse" that a Sebenza sees is much lower on average than what a Spyderco or Buck will see as they are 10 times cheaper. You would also expect a more expensive knife to be more durable, not less and thus should hold a thinner angle not require a thicker one.
Now the only way this would be true would be if the workloads were very difference, if you could argue that the Sebenza was intended for much rougher use than the Bucks and Spydercos, which in this case has a big problem in the nature of the primary grind which is deep dish hollow which makes it a much less durable knife in extreme cases than something like the flat grind on a Spyderco Military.
But this goes back to the hardness issue, if you have to lower the hardness on a steel below the optimal range to get the required toughness then you should be using a different steel in the first place. Otherwise all you are trying to do is cash in on a trend "name".
As for Spyderco, they had their problems with heat treating and their choice of hardness on 440V (~55 HRC) had much more than one stable problem, you can readily notice a drop of 4-6 HRC points, and this turned many people off from 440V as the lower hardness made it difficult to sharpen, and it didn't hold an edge well.
The real solution here is that 440V simply wasn't a good choice for that type of folder becuase it was too brittle if used at a hardness necessary for crisp edge formation and high edge retention, so you look for other steels. VG-10 in the same blades works much better for example.
I would much prefer a Sebenza with a VG-10 blade at ~60HRC with an edge of ~15 degrees per side than a S30V blade at ~57 with 22 degrees per side. If I wanted 57 HRC and decent toughness and ductility I'd simply get 420HC for a lot cheaper than a Sebenza.
-Cliff
Yes so they should chose a more optimal steel.
To be frank, the levels of "abuse" that a Sebenza sees is much lower on average than what a Spyderco or Buck will see as they are 10 times cheaper. You would also expect a more expensive knife to be more durable, not less and thus should hold a thinner angle not require a thicker one.
Now the only way this would be true would be if the workloads were very difference, if you could argue that the Sebenza was intended for much rougher use than the Bucks and Spydercos, which in this case has a big problem in the nature of the primary grind which is deep dish hollow which makes it a much less durable knife in extreme cases than something like the flat grind on a Spyderco Military.
But this goes back to the hardness issue, if you have to lower the hardness on a steel below the optimal range to get the required toughness then you should be using a different steel in the first place. Otherwise all you are trying to do is cash in on a trend "name".
As for Spyderco, they had their problems with heat treating and their choice of hardness on 440V (~55 HRC) had much more than one stable problem, you can readily notice a drop of 4-6 HRC points, and this turned many people off from 440V as the lower hardness made it difficult to sharpen, and it didn't hold an edge well.
The real solution here is that 440V simply wasn't a good choice for that type of folder becuase it was too brittle if used at a hardness necessary for crisp edge formation and high edge retention, so you look for other steels. VG-10 in the same blades works much better for example.
I would much prefer a Sebenza with a VG-10 blade at ~60HRC with an edge of ~15 degrees per side than a S30V blade at ~57 with 22 degrees per side. If I wanted 57 HRC and decent toughness and ductility I'd simply get 420HC for a lot cheaper than a Sebenza.
-Cliff
Professor
Gold Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 1999
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Re-profile the edge (over time, not all at once) while sharpening with a fine-grit diamond sharpener (mine's made by EdgeCraft-TM, a relatively inexpensive model; around $15 IIRC), and use the same sharpener to maintain the edge. It has taken nearly a year to get the edge of my Seb where I want it angle-wise, though if I would have dedicated a single, entire day to it, the process woulda been faster.
I've never chipped my edge, nor experienced any monkey business with edge retention. Having carried Spydercos, Benchmades, custom folders, and most recently CR folders for the past three years, I don't buy the "S30V at lower RC is a bad thing" concept as has been applied specifically to the Seb. I believe this thinking to be academic, with little consequence applied to the Seb's actual use. Rather, as someone has stated above, I too believe it's all in one's ability to sharpen at a consistent angle, and a resulting re-beveling of the Seb's critical edge.
Professor.
I've never chipped my edge, nor experienced any monkey business with edge retention. Having carried Spydercos, Benchmades, custom folders, and most recently CR folders for the past three years, I don't buy the "S30V at lower RC is a bad thing" concept as has been applied specifically to the Seb. I believe this thinking to be academic, with little consequence applied to the Seb's actual use. Rather, as someone has stated above, I too believe it's all in one's ability to sharpen at a consistent angle, and a resulting re-beveling of the Seb's critical edge.
Professor.
I'm going to agree with Cliff that CRK is not using the steel optimally. Not because of the Rc--that is another matter, but because if S30V can handle 15 degrees there is no reason why it should not be set at that angle. Spydercos come at 15 degrees and I dont hear about their edges chipping. A 15 degree angle would greatly enhance cutting efficiency and it would also make sharpening easier.
Cliff:
CRK's S30V is not 57Rc, it is 58-59. As for the 420HC comparison, that sounds like quite a stretch.
Cliff:
I would also prefer VG10 at the higher hardness, unfortunately that will probably never happen. I have no complaints with S30V, but I do have better luck with VG10 and so from my experience it seems to be the better steel.
CRK's S30V is not 57Rc, it is 58-59. As for the 420HC comparison, that sounds like quite a stretch.
Martha, come here quick! Looky at all these boys who say they can't get their Sebbies vara sharp. Do ya spoose they have a differnt one than like my Chris Reeve Sebbie? Dang, Martha we need to get to the bottom of this 'for the Sebbie gets completely misunderstood. I didn't know what sharp was 'til I got my first Sebbie. Ok, Martha, I got that off my chest. You cain go back to sleep now. See you later.
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- Apr 10, 2000
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- 3,794
My 0.02$.
I believe sharpening issues are most likely because of the sharpening skills(or lack of it).
I don't have S30V sebenza, but my BG-42 I can get as sharp as any other staingless steel.
I still have to master the sharpness measruring method with scales, but simply put it is ablt to shave hair in both directions without irritating the skin.
In the begining I was using the edge pro. Now I can get the same results using mousepad/sandpaper method.
May be S30V has its own problems @ lower HRC, the only S30V blade I have is around 59-60 HRC (Rinaldi TTKK) and I had no problems sharpening it to the same level. Although the edge it around 40-45 degree included. The way I use it I don't want to get it thinner for now.
I believe sharpening issues are most likely because of the sharpening skills(or lack of it).
I don't have S30V sebenza, but my BG-42 I can get as sharp as any other staingless steel.
I still have to master the sharpness measruring method with scales, but simply put it is ablt to shave hair in both directions without irritating the skin.
In the begining I was using the edge pro. Now I can get the same results using mousepad/sandpaper method.
May be S30V has its own problems @ lower HRC, the only S30V blade I have is around 59-60 HRC (Rinaldi TTKK) and I had no problems sharpening it to the same level. Although the edge it around 40-45 degree included. The way I use it I don't want to get it thinner for now.