-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
How sharp is sharp enough - A personal thing?
- Thread starter Rhodies
- Start date
I got on the it's never sharp enough wagon for a long time. I will still every now and then sharpen to the almost perfect edge. But I have come to the point that I put an edge on that will cut a hanging paper towel and that is good enough. As now all my knives are users and no matter what the edge is that I put on them it will get dull and in most cases a little damaged from use.I go pretty thin as that is how I like my edges to cut and cut well.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2009
- Messages
- 13,430
A last, clinging remnant of some of us 'old school' folks, I guess. Anybody still using landline telephones will have them delivered to their residence, wanted or not. I've been in the habit of saving the old ones after the new year's edition gets dropped in the driveway or delivered in the mail. And barring that, if they don't get delivered to you, most Post Offices also distribute them to anyone walking in who wants one, during the distribution season for the new ones.
In the absence of phonebooks, most any mail order catalog dropped in your mail box will serve in the same capacity. Newsprint is similar, though maybe with a little different character to the paper.
David
I used to obsess over sharpness when I was younger, but it became less important to me as I went through life. I finally got to the point where if my knife was sharp enough slice paper, and just do what I needed to do cutting wise, that was good enough. Most mornings I give my knife a few strokes on the bottom of the coffee mug at breakfast, and then I'm off on my day's activities.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2007
- Messages
- 25
Now that was an interesting read. Makes a lot of sense.
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2012
- Messages
- 141
I sharpen at knife shows and other occasional events. I do it mostly to fund my addiction to knives.
Dirt,
Today, in the west world, live 90 % of the citisence in citys and only 10% live outside citys. City people use knifes in modern materials as cardboard, nylon, paper, dry hard wood- and so on = the material in use in normal city life.
Knifes has allways developed and been designed out of need, often a special need. That is why shoemakers use shoemakerknifes and surgents use scalpells. City people also develop and design knifes from their needs - so they follow the old knife tradition.
Today we have two developing ways of knifes, the traditional old way - and city people way. The traditionals way still use their knifes on fresh materials from the nature. They dont chop or batoon with their knifes, only city people do that. That means that traditional edges often is around 20-30 degrees. If they use modern hard steel, the edges is around 30-40 degrees so that the edges holds. Here few traditionals use hard modern steel, they use softer steels in their knifes - and sharpen their knifes more often instead. The important thing is that the edges dont chip, they just go dull.
in the same time, city people have forgot old knife knowledge and how yo use knifes properly - they chop with small knifes designed for slicing and many also batoon on their knifes. Knife producers know this and of cause they produce stronger knifes in harder steel so that the knife holds for this treatment. That is, in my mind, the main reason that give US the hard steel we have today in modern knifes - and that today knife blades often are 4-5 mm thick. That is a new thing on normal knifes. People below 35 year of age often think that knifes has allways have thick blades...
In knife forums all over the world - at least 99 % of the members live in urban areas or in citys and use their knifes in hard dry materials. Knifes are often seen not only as a tool - knifes are something more then that - for traditionals the knife is only a tool designed for a special type of use. Most traditionals use allround knifes = medium belly and medium tip -not good for anything - but can do nearly everything - and that is the special purpouse for a allround knife.
Most city people today by good looking knifes with a cool design in their taste. They never think about just their needs - or what blade design and type of edge or edge angle they need to have so that their knifes are as effective as possible for the needs they have.
Traditionals understand their needs and by, or make, knifes that solves a specific problem they have. They know that a knife shall only be as sharp it need to be for its porpouse, not sharper, or duller, then that. They often carry more then one knife - and those knifes have different blade design, edge angles, and edge types.
A lot of city people has a goal that their knifes shall be as sharp as possible, whittling in hair, pushcut in paper, shaving sharp, and so on are popular. That is why we, on knife forums, often read about just sharpness. Not the levell of sharpness that is needed for a good working knife.
Sharpness are, in my mind, no problem. It is just to learn that the two sides of the edge shall meet eachother properly in a low angle and that fine sharpeners shall be use in the end of the sharpening process.
But when I ask those people what the edge angle their knifes have - they do not know...if their edge are convex, they do not know what convex sphere there is on their knifes or what edge angle there is on the cutting edge. That is my experiance after 60 years of using knifes as a traditionalist.
The fact that we have at least two big different ways of developing and design knifes is good. Knifes must be developed and designed from needs and from use. The problem, as I see it, is that old knife knowledge has more or less died out - and city people use city knifes outdoors - and mostly that is a bad idea...
The base is: never chop with a normal knife, never batoon with a knife, the edge angle decides from the material the edge shall work in.
The differance between this two ways is that citypeople often describe their edges with how many meters cardboard the edge can slice before the edge gone dull. Traditionals often describe that they can skin and depart two moose and start on the third before the edge is to dull for the job. Now, there is not so much moose in citys so the developing of city knifes used in city materials are natural and helthy. But - city knifes are for citys, not for outdoorlife.
How to meassure edges? Few can.
The differance in edge thickness 0,05 mm behind the cutting edge in more material in the edge, between 10 and 11 degrees, is 1/1000 part of 1 mm per side = 2/1000 part of 1 mm total. This means that we discuss very, very small things when we discuss edges and edge angles.
I often hear that the edge angle do not matter so much. When I ask questions about that the same people can not meaasure the edge angles = they have not a clue.
The steel, blade design, type of edge, edge angle and choosen sharpness levell all together decides how the knife works and decide its function in different materials.
To make an edge sharp is the easyest thing to do to a knife. It can be made on all edges, all edge angles, all steel and on all blade designs. Traditional knife knowledge is to know and understand egde angles and edge types and levell of sharpness so that they understand what they need to have to solve their needs - and so that the needed knife are as effective as possible.
Edge sharpness shall allways be balanced with edge "strongness" against where = the edge must hold to work with as long time as possible
The picture shows what I ment above. When I know that I shall do multipel jobs I also take with me knifes that I know I will need for the job. For example, I dont like to butcher a game with a Skinner.
The pic below shows an allround knife from the late 700 century = it was owned by a viking. This blade design are still in use, it have not change during 1400 years. It is perfect for its purpouse - in Scandinavia.
Thomas
Today, in the west world, live 90 % of the citisence in citys and only 10% live outside citys. City people use knifes in modern materials as cardboard, nylon, paper, dry hard wood- and so on = the material in use in normal city life.
Knifes has allways developed and been designed out of need, often a special need. That is why shoemakers use shoemakerknifes and surgents use scalpells. City people also develop and design knifes from their needs - so they follow the old knife tradition.
Today we have two developing ways of knifes, the traditional old way - and city people way. The traditionals way still use their knifes on fresh materials from the nature. They dont chop or batoon with their knifes, only city people do that. That means that traditional edges often is around 20-30 degrees. If they use modern hard steel, the edges is around 30-40 degrees so that the edges holds. Here few traditionals use hard modern steel, they use softer steels in their knifes - and sharpen their knifes more often instead. The important thing is that the edges dont chip, they just go dull.
in the same time, city people have forgot old knife knowledge and how yo use knifes properly - they chop with small knifes designed for slicing and many also batoon on their knifes. Knife producers know this and of cause they produce stronger knifes in harder steel so that the knife holds for this treatment. That is, in my mind, the main reason that give US the hard steel we have today in modern knifes - and that today knife blades often are 4-5 mm thick. That is a new thing on normal knifes. People below 35 year of age often think that knifes has allways have thick blades...
In knife forums all over the world - at least 99 % of the members live in urban areas or in citys and use their knifes in hard dry materials. Knifes are often seen not only as a tool - knifes are something more then that - for traditionals the knife is only a tool designed for a special type of use. Most traditionals use allround knifes = medium belly and medium tip -not good for anything - but can do nearly everything - and that is the special purpouse for a allround knife.
Most city people today by good looking knifes with a cool design in their taste. They never think about just their needs - or what blade design and type of edge or edge angle they need to have so that their knifes are as effective as possible for the needs they have.
Traditionals understand their needs and by, or make, knifes that solves a specific problem they have. They know that a knife shall only be as sharp it need to be for its porpouse, not sharper, or duller, then that. They often carry more then one knife - and those knifes have different blade design, edge angles, and edge types.
A lot of city people has a goal that their knifes shall be as sharp as possible, whittling in hair, pushcut in paper, shaving sharp, and so on are popular. That is why we, on knife forums, often read about just sharpness. Not the levell of sharpness that is needed for a good working knife.
Sharpness are, in my mind, no problem. It is just to learn that the two sides of the edge shall meet eachother properly in a low angle and that fine sharpeners shall be use in the end of the sharpening process.
But when I ask those people what the edge angle their knifes have - they do not know...if their edge are convex, they do not know what convex sphere there is on their knifes or what edge angle there is on the cutting edge. That is my experiance after 60 years of using knifes as a traditionalist.
The fact that we have at least two big different ways of developing and design knifes is good. Knifes must be developed and designed from needs and from use. The problem, as I see it, is that old knife knowledge has more or less died out - and city people use city knifes outdoors - and mostly that is a bad idea...
The base is: never chop with a normal knife, never batoon with a knife, the edge angle decides from the material the edge shall work in.
The differance between this two ways is that citypeople often describe their edges with how many meters cardboard the edge can slice before the edge gone dull. Traditionals often describe that they can skin and depart two moose and start on the third before the edge is to dull for the job. Now, there is not so much moose in citys so the developing of city knifes used in city materials are natural and helthy. But - city knifes are for citys, not for outdoorlife.
How to meassure edges? Few can.
The differance in edge thickness 0,05 mm behind the cutting edge in more material in the edge, between 10 and 11 degrees, is 1/1000 part of 1 mm per side = 2/1000 part of 1 mm total. This means that we discuss very, very small things when we discuss edges and edge angles.
I often hear that the edge angle do not matter so much. When I ask questions about that the same people can not meaasure the edge angles = they have not a clue.
The steel, blade design, type of edge, edge angle and choosen sharpness levell all together decides how the knife works and decide its function in different materials.
To make an edge sharp is the easyest thing to do to a knife. It can be made on all edges, all edge angles, all steel and on all blade designs. Traditional knife knowledge is to know and understand egde angles and edge types and levell of sharpness so that they understand what they need to have to solve their needs - and so that the needed knife are as effective as possible.
Edge sharpness shall allways be balanced with edge "strongness" against where = the edge must hold to work with as long time as possible
The picture shows what I ment above. When I know that I shall do multipel jobs I also take with me knifes that I know I will need for the job. For example, I dont like to butcher a game with a Skinner.
The pic below shows an allround knife from the late 700 century = it was owned by a viking. This blade design are still in use, it have not change during 1400 years. It is perfect for its purpouse - in Scandinavia.
Thomas
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2007
- Messages
- 25
Thomas, I would say most (I emphasize 'most') around here are probably of the urban nature, myself included. As a young man I remember the country life. At the time I never gave it much thought. I do recall my father teaching me about different knives and their use. I've never heard it put so simply though. Or maybe I wasn't paying that much attention then.
Now days I'm with the paper cutters and sometimes use one of my str8s for a shave.
btw, great pic.
Now days I'm with the paper cutters and sometimes use one of my str8s for a shave.
btw, great pic.
Dirt,
Today we all are in the paper and cardboard life - more or less. I live sins 30 years back out in the Forest in the middle of Sweden. I have 1 neighbur - and many miles of Gorest around my house - with all the wild animals there live in this area of Sweden. Before that I live 20 years above the actic circle in the high mountains with Sami people 6 month every year. I also slice cardboard sometimes - but not often. The. Modern world you know
I am 71. I have been around for a while. I remember what my father and his father - and all grown up men around me told me "never chop with a knife. If you need to chop, get an axe". Those words was a sort of mantra when I grow up. And - everybody use knifes, men, womans and we children. I start to carry knife when I was 10 - and I still do it every day.
I have live long times without electricity far out in the wilderness. In that type of life you learn to do things with your hands with very simple tools - and learn to keep those tools effective. All people living for 100 yeqrs ago could that and know how to do it. It was common knowledge. Today it is more or less forgotten. I talk a lot of those things to keep this knowledge alive.
Your father was correct. He use different knifes for different things. You also do that. You eat your food and use a special knife for just that. You use butterknifes, perhaps a razor, you have a allround knife in your house, probebly a folder or two - and you have about 5-10 kitchen knifes to prepare food in the kitchen.
But you have probebly only 1 real knife that you use outdoors - and you do not know what edge angle it have. People fore 100 years ago carry a allround knife in their belt, they have 5-10 other knifes in the carpenter hut or in the basement, they have chissels, 2-3 axes, 2-5 saws, drills and drillbits for woodwork, and 3-5 plains. That was a sort of standard equipment for 100 years ago - and they could sharpen all of them, they know the levell off sharpness they should have and they know how long time the edge would hold when they plain birchwood - and how short time the edge woluld hold when they plain oak or ash wood. That was also common knowledge before IKEA
Today people use electrical hand tools - and most can not handle a plain or sharpen a plain steel - and most have still problem to get a knife sharp.
Nearly all people send their knifes to sharpening now and then "to get the edge back" - becouse they have sharpen their knifes wrong. Of cause - I only talk about Scandinavian people...
I like the picture of the 1400 years old allround knife carryed by a real viking. Knowing and understanding the age - perfect functional things used by humans never change shape or form - and this design are probebly 2, perhaps 3000 years old and used by real knife users during all this time - and you can still by this knifeblade today.
Är have also meet a lot of people during my life that say that they can make this blade more functional and better working outdoors
Thomas
Today we all are in the paper and cardboard life - more or less. I live sins 30 years back out in the Forest in the middle of Sweden. I have 1 neighbur - and many miles of Gorest around my house - with all the wild animals there live in this area of Sweden. Before that I live 20 years above the actic circle in the high mountains with Sami people 6 month every year. I also slice cardboard sometimes - but not often. The. Modern world you know
I am 71. I have been around for a while. I remember what my father and his father - and all grown up men around me told me "never chop with a knife. If you need to chop, get an axe". Those words was a sort of mantra when I grow up. And - everybody use knifes, men, womans and we children. I start to carry knife when I was 10 - and I still do it every day.
I have live long times without electricity far out in the wilderness. In that type of life you learn to do things with your hands with very simple tools - and learn to keep those tools effective. All people living for 100 yeqrs ago could that and know how to do it. It was common knowledge. Today it is more or less forgotten. I talk a lot of those things to keep this knowledge alive.
Your father was correct. He use different knifes for different things. You also do that. You eat your food and use a special knife for just that. You use butterknifes, perhaps a razor, you have a allround knife in your house, probebly a folder or two - and you have about 5-10 kitchen knifes to prepare food in the kitchen.
But you have probebly only 1 real knife that you use outdoors - and you do not know what edge angle it have. People fore 100 years ago carry a allround knife in their belt, they have 5-10 other knifes in the carpenter hut or in the basement, they have chissels, 2-3 axes, 2-5 saws, drills and drillbits for woodwork, and 3-5 plains. That was a sort of standard equipment for 100 years ago - and they could sharpen all of them, they know the levell off sharpness they should have and they know how long time the edge would hold when they plain birchwood - and how short time the edge woluld hold when they plain oak or ash wood. That was also common knowledge before IKEA
Today people use electrical hand tools - and most can not handle a plain or sharpen a plain steel - and most have still problem to get a knife sharp.
Nearly all people send their knifes to sharpening now and then "to get the edge back" - becouse they have sharpen their knifes wrong. Of cause - I only talk about Scandinavian people...
I like the picture of the 1400 years old allround knife carryed by a real viking. Knowing and understanding the age - perfect functional things used by humans never change shape or form - and this design are probebly 2, perhaps 3000 years old and used by real knife users during all this time - and you can still by this knifeblade today.
Är have also meet a lot of people during my life that say that they can make this blade more functional and better working outdoors
Thomas
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2008
- Messages
- 25,952
I make my edges as thin as is consistent with their requisite strength, and in most cases I get them to clean-shaving sharpness but don't sweat further because I can get to that stage in a matter of seconds, while going above and beyond that takes significantly more care and time without giving a tangible benefit for most contexts.
I used to spend a lot of time fussing over edges to get them to hair-whittling levels, but that was back when I was in awe of the fact that I could get them to do that. I can still do it, and much easier than I could back then, but the additional time (even if it's maybe 5 minutes) is much much longer than the few seconds it takes to get to regular ol' shaving sharp.
I used to spend a lot of time fussing over edges to get them to hair-whittling levels, but that was back when I was in awe of the fact that I could get them to do that. I can still do it, and much easier than I could back then, but the additional time (even if it's maybe 5 minutes) is much much longer than the few seconds it takes to get to regular ol' shaving sharp.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2017
- Messages
- 53
For me it really depends on what i'm using it for. If i'm in the field for a couple days or out camping I can accept an edge that can cut paper easily. For edc the second it wont shave it has become dull and needs to be sharpened. I have been wanting the ultrafine sharpmaker rods for a while since the hair shaving edge is just not doing it for me anymore 
FortyTwoBlades,
We all have special needs of sharpness depending om to what we use our knifes to do + we have standard needs for common outdoor life. Depending on where on Earth we live, how soft, or hard, the firewood are, if we skin beavers or deers, butcher games or fish = our blade design and edge angle differs.
If you need shaving sharp knifes outdoors and there edges hold for you - your chois of edge is perfect for just you.
I can not use beard shaving sharp edges where I live becouse they get dull very fast.
When using knifes outdoors you can go two ways in sharpening, often and little, and seldome and much. I am the often and little type of person becouse that method can save my life. I never let my edges get dull when I live outdoors.
Hair shaving sharp in my mind is a levell of sharpness tested on arm hair - when the hair so not pop when shaving. That is a nice levell of sharpness to hold on edges on outdoor knifes.
Beard shaving sharp is to sharp.
The sharpning process depends on where I am. At home I use sharpening tools, outdoors I go freehand mostly.
Thomas
We all have special needs of sharpness depending om to what we use our knifes to do + we have standard needs for common outdoor life. Depending on where on Earth we live, how soft, or hard, the firewood are, if we skin beavers or deers, butcher games or fish = our blade design and edge angle differs.
If you need shaving sharp knifes outdoors and there edges hold for you - your chois of edge is perfect for just you.
I can not use beard shaving sharp edges where I live becouse they get dull very fast.
When using knifes outdoors you can go two ways in sharpening, often and little, and seldome and much. I am the often and little type of person becouse that method can save my life. I never let my edges get dull when I live outdoors.
Hair shaving sharp in my mind is a levell of sharpness tested on arm hair - when the hair so not pop when shaving. That is a nice levell of sharpness to hold on edges on outdoor knifes.
Beard shaving sharp is to sharp.
The sharpning process depends on where I am. At home I use sharpening tools, outdoors I go freehand mostly.
Thomas
ChubbyBrother,
To use knifes after type of use are traditional knife knowledge
If you need sharper edges then shaving sharp when you are outdoors - to what are you using your knife? Or, was it your EDC folder you like to have as sharp as that?
I carry, around the house, a Fallkniven F1 in my belt. I also carry a folder that is very sharp that I use when I need that levell of sharpness.
Thomas
To use knifes after type of use are traditional knife knowledge
If you need sharper edges then shaving sharp when you are outdoors - to what are you using your knife? Or, was it your EDC folder you like to have as sharp as that?
I carry, around the house, a Fallkniven F1 in my belt. I also carry a folder that is very sharp that I use when I need that levell of sharpness.
Thomas
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2008
- Messages
- 25,952
Thinner edges are more prone to dulling from plastic deformation but actually improve edge retention in abrasive cutting. Also, I never said beard-shaving sharp. Hair shaving sharp is conventionally taken to mean arm/leg hair. Also, be careful not to conflate thinness with sharpness. Sharpness is just edge apex thickness, and you can have a very sharp 90° angle, but its converging planes make such a thick geometry that it won't penetrate deep.
FirtyTwoBlades,
I explained the differance in my answer, did I not? If not - I am sorry.
(Here we dont talk about hair shaving sharp so much, I use that only in English).
Thinner edges penetrate easyer, I agree
Yes, it is possible to get. 90 degree edge sharp - but it penetrate badly.
An saying is:
Steel cutting edges holds 90 degrees
Axes hold 45 degrees
Knifes holds 22 degrees
Razors hold 11 degerees.
Depending on what the edge shall cut or do, steel, wood cross fibers, knifes along fibers and hair - the edge angle decrease 50 %
Thomas
I explained the differance in my answer, did I not? If not - I am sorry.
(Here we dont talk about hair shaving sharp so much, I use that only in English).
Thinner edges penetrate easyer, I agree
Yes, it is possible to get. 90 degree edge sharp - but it penetrate badly.
An saying is:
Steel cutting edges holds 90 degrees
Axes hold 45 degrees
Knifes holds 22 degrees
Razors hold 11 degerees.
Depending on what the edge shall cut or do, steel, wood cross fibers, knifes along fibers and hair - the edge angle decrease 50 %
Thomas
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2008
- Messages
- 25,952
I think you don't understand my point. The edge being sharp enough to shave arm hair doesn't have much to do with the edge angle as much as the thickness of the edge apex. So regardless of the context-imposed geometry of my cutting tool, I'm able to get it sharp enough to shave arm hair. This remains the same if my edge is thicker or thinner. You also claimed that edges that are beard-shaving sharp go dull too quickly for you. That wouldn't be the case unless you're talking about using a polished push-cutting edge for slicing, in which case that's less about sharpness and about the scratch pattern. Coarse edges are better at slicing and polished edges are better at push-cutting, all else held equal.
I polish edges when it is needed or for experiments I make about edges - but here I write about traditional knifes and old knife knowledge from Scandinavia.
When I skin and depart moose I like to use knifes that work for me, not against me. The work shall be done fast and effective becouse then I must carry the meat many kilometer to the nearest road or lake where airplain can land. I like that the edges holds during that job, I dont like to sharpen my knifes during job like that. When the job is done, I mantain my edges before I start carry the meat.
How do you meassure sharpness and edge angle on the cutting edge?
Thomas
When I skin and depart moose I like to use knifes that work for me, not against me. The work shall be done fast and effective becouse then I must carry the meat many kilometer to the nearest road or lake where airplain can land. I like that the edges holds during that job, I dont like to sharpen my knifes during job like that. When the job is done, I mantain my edges before I start carry the meat.
How do you meassure sharpness and edge angle on the cutting edge?
Thomas
Uncle Timbo
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2005
- Messages
- 5,294
As a young hillbilly growing up in WV, Dad said, son, there's two different ways to sharpen a knife. One was what he called his, "working edge." Not quite as steep, ground for cutting up cardboard boxes and the like. The other was what he and many of you called his, shaving arm hair finish. Dad likened it to me this way, son, if you sharpen a pencil real, REAL sharp, and then go and do some rough work with it, is that blade going to hold up or last very long under hard use? He said, that's when you use your blade with the working edge. (Yea, we're talking about a Stockman type knife)
One time salesman came to the plant where my Dad worked in the maintenance dept. to show them a new product. It was all boxed up. He said, I need to borrow a knife, I hear all you hillbillies carry sharp pocket knives. Dad pull out his Tree Brand and opened it up to his, "arm hair shaving blade and handed it to the guy and said, please be careful. As the salesman was using it, it cut thru the cardboard like hot butter. He said, damn, they were right about you guys.
Dad said to me, I had to to sharpen that blade when I got it home.
My point is, I'm not a surgeon. A good working edge on my Sage I is fine for this hillbilly.
Bring on the cardboard.