how sharp is sharp enough?

Hi Sarge! Did you get my email btw?

Yep, I was talking about 30° and 5° included. Most of my pocket knives are sharpend at about 30° included, and the surgical ones are somewhat sharpend around 5° included. Might be a bit more though, at least on mine. They're not used for operations anyway, just for dissecting stuff.

Anyway, I am glad to learn that I can get a 90° edge or even a 179° edge as sharp as a 30° one. I'm surprised to learn the angle is only relevant for cutting efficiency, but well.

Howard, I only recently learned the term "cs'ed", while talking to Mr. Schemp, I hope my spelling was correct, being a foreigner and all that ;)

Whatever, to each his own. I dont shave with my khuks, and I dont want them to cut too efficiently, so I am not trying to get them as "sharp" as I can. YMMV :)

Keno
 
Sylvrfalcn said:
And if you no kidding mean an included angle of 5 degrees (2 1/2 degree bevels) you've just about surpassed surgical scalpels.

It is fairly hard to get that low, that is the depth of the primary grind on even really thin blades, for comparison a common mora is sharpened at 10/12 degrees per side, so 20/24 included. The ones I have which are that acute, <5 per side, have full hollow grinds on really thin stock. They cut well, but the edge can crack on hardwoods unless care is used, I generally raise them to 5-7 per side for that type of work, depends on the steel and the heat treatment.

arty said:
I wouldn't bother with that for a kukhuri, and a hard Arkansas would be more than enough.

I finish similar, usually a waterstone, I go 200, 800,1000, 4000, then just a few passes on chromium oxide to mainly clean the edge, not enough to actually polish it significantly. If you have power equipment you can do it much faster, micro-abrasives on belts and a buffer/power stropper can do this near instantly. Guys like Fikes probably do trivially what is work to most of us. If you really want to see what sharp blades can do, check out some of the cutting he has done with large blades, a lot of it seems simply impossible but he has done it.

Fishing fillet knives need a sharper edge than a general purpose kitchen knife - I stop at a Norton Soft Arkansas for most kitchen knives.

I leave the finish rough on most utility slicers, the paring knives I raise to a fine polish, but they are so tiny they sharpen near instantly anyway. I dual grind the large chef's knives usually with Joe's rough/fine edge finish to give them a bit of a draw ability in the first inch for harder materials. All of my personal ones I reground the edges on belts usually so they are really easy to sharpen, just apply a tiny microbevel. The knives I really put the sharpest edge I can on are usually small ones that I carry for precision work like cutting light paper and thin plastics. My small Sebenza rarely goes below shaving unless I am peeling dirty vegetables or similar. It is trivial to restore as I reground the edge awhile back.

I have no trouble sharpening any khukuri to a shaving edge, but I just don't usually take the time to get them to the leve of "sharp" that I would want for a plane iron or a carving gouge.

Pretty much. My standards are higher now than they used to be, simply because it is easier now to get the blades sharper just because of all the practice. It wasn't that long ago I was happy if I could get them to draw cut paper, now I rarely let them get that dull they won't do that, unless I am gardening or similar.

Howard Wallace said:
Someone carrying a khukuri as a weapon would have a legitimate reason for maintaining a different edge than someone using their khukuri to dig potatoes.

Generally just shape them, I finish polished some spades on a lark one time, left one side high polished and the other side just filed and deburred, just out of curiosity, it makes no difference beyond the first few cuts, once the dirt hits it, the edge thickens rapidly. You are better off in general in actually running the stone into the edge and flattening it, unless you are using it to cut sods and other rooty soil.


For some tasks there is a sharpness it is not cost effective in terms of time and energy to maintain.

Skill is a factor as well, it would take me a lot of time to get each of my blades up to the one Rishar sharpened and I tested. I have only seen a couple of other blades out of everything I handled which was that sharp, and ironically he noted he didn't feel the job was optimal. I think there is an element of care to it as well, you get it screaming sharp and you in general tend to have more respect for it in use which I think is a good thing, you tend to get sloppy, use more force and less technique when they are not as sharp.

-Cliff
 
richardallen said:
Of course, which is why power tools used to split wood are usually sharpend by Gilette to achieve a razor sharp edge ;)

I'd say while an edge with a polished, 5° included angle is plenty sharp, I'd rather not use it for chopping hardwoods.
The problem with such an edge is that it will likely get damaged if you're angle is a slight bit of or if you hit something unexpected, such as a nail. Your mileage my vary of corse.

Keno

He said sharp, not low angle... The two are only slightly related...
You can get a 90° angle sharp enough to cut you...
You pick your angle based on what you are going to be doing with the blade, and it will help determine how well the blade pushes through material, but you can have a 5° included angle edge that is very rough, and it will cut synthetic rope very well, but if you want to push cut wood, it will need to be polished and SHOULD be higher angle...
 
He said sharp, not low angle... The two are only slightly related...
You can get a 90° angle sharp enough to cut you...

Yep, I got the point some posts ago. I still have doubts though, and I'd still like to see someone shave with a 90° [maybe even 179°, take it to an extreme and see if your point is still valid...] angle, since you keep insisting that the angle doesn't affect "sharpness" but only cutting efficiency :)

Maybe we should first define sharpness? What is sharp? What makes something sharp?

Keno
 
I give up!:grumpy: I tried to use the belt sander to try and thin out the blades edge "like what has been mentioned several times". I cant seem to get a burr nor can i get the damn thing sharper than a butter knife. my other kuks arent giving me a problem the only one is the Pen knife which i just got.
I wonder of Cliff or any other blade sharpening gurus out there would be willing to tackle the job any offers would be apprecieated.thanks
 
Daniel Koster will put a very sharp convex edge on your PK for a small fee, rctk1. However, it will likely take him a while to get to it as he's been busy with various projects. Nasty will also sharpen someone's khukuri for them, but right now he's waiting for the weather at his place to warm up so he can work in his garage.

Bob
 
Steve Ferguson sharpened mine for me...Wanna talk scary sharp?? A 15" AK that will make hair JUMP off your arm!!!:eek:


WOOOHOOOO!!!!!:D :thumbup:


Gotta get him to teach me to do that!

DavesharpyB.
 
I use a convex edge on kukri. I'm not quite sure what it is but I'd guess around 40degree total.
I use 1500grit wet&dry paper and then the white spyderco stones.
It will cut a free standing pop bottle in half without much difficulty
 
Leatherface said:
Steve Ferguson sharpened mine for me...Wanna talk scary sharp?? A 15" AK that will make hair JUMP off your arm!!!:eek:


WOOOHOOOO!!!!!:D :thumbup:


Gotta get him to teach me to do that!

DavesharpyB.

Me too. I got a handleless Chitlangi blade from him that is beautifully sharpened. I've got some learning to do there.:rolleyes: A khuk is much more complicated to sharpen than pocket knives, chisels, and plane irons. I'm pretty good at those.:yawn:
 
richardallen said:
What makes something sharp?

When you cut a material the force you have to opposite consists of three parts :

1) the rupture pressure, which is the force directly against the edge, once this is exceeded the edge of the knife cuts through the contact point, thick of a pin busting a ballon

2) binding force, what is necessary to force the material apart so that the body of the knife can pass through

3) drag forces on the sides of the blade

The sharpness of the edge controls the first factor, the geometry of the blade controls the second and the finish of the blade controls the last one, critically anyway, there is some overlap.

Not all materials have signficant amounts of each type. A block of cheese is very low in the first, significant in the second and very high in the third. Hemp rope is insignificant in the last part, the second part is only slight but the first part is really high.

Note sharpness also depends on how you cut as well as what you cut, for example a knife will have a different optimal sharpess for push cutting hemp rope as it does for slicing. Somone who does drawcutting with khukuris on light vegetation will also in general prefer more of a coarse edge to someone who mainly runs chopping swings.

rctk1, start with a really coarse belt, 80 grit, one thing to remember is that it takes more time to make the same progress as you keep working, so the very final edge forming can take as much time as all the rough honing because you are not working on a wider area and you have to move deeper to make the same length of progress in the width. Don't switch from the 80 grit belt until the edge is hit, at this point it should slice newsprint evenly.

-Cliff
 
Ok,

now we're talking.

Different types of sharpness make sense; simplified we're talking coarse edge vs polished edge here, right?

The different forces make sense as well, BUT:

When you look at your blades, and I'd ask you what your sharpest blade whould be, what would that blade look like? What material properties would it have?

Let's take the cheese example, it's quite a good one: A cheesecutter's edge is merely a thin piece of wire, but it cuts cheese better than a knife. In all the three forces you mentioned, it should have very low numbers.

Still, if I'd present you my cheese cutter and tell you "this is my sharpest blade" you'd probably not agree. It is not my sharpest blade, it is the tool that works best for cutting cheese, because it has the lowest drag force and does an acceptable job at overcoming the binding force.

Can you see what I mean?

The sharpest blade would probable be a very thin blade made out of obsidian, because of the fine edge you can get due to the molecular structure of the material. It wouldn't be good for chopping though ;)

regards, Keno
 
richardallen said:
Different types of sharpness make sense; simplified we're talking coarse edge vs polished edge here, right?

That is one aspect, pretty much the primary one, the alignment of the teeth make a difference as well, you can sharpen a coarse edge so it cuts more aggressively as you pull it towards you or away from you, you could even do different things on the same blade so for example on a recurve the part next to the choil would be very aggressive if you drew the blade towards you but the sweep in the tip would be very aggressive if you cut away from you, on a slash for example.

I'd ask you what your sharpest blade whould be, what would that blade look like? What material properties would it have?

Right now it is the Blackjack small as I just sharpened it last night. Tonight it will be the South Fork once I resharpen it as it gets sharper than the Blackjack on both push/slice (they have the same edge profile) which is kind of odd considering it is S30V and the Blackjack is 52100, I think the heat treatment is buggered on that though as the edge retention is low, I have to rerun another 52100 blade against the South Fork and compare.

Still, if I'd present you my cheese cutter and tell you "this is my sharpest blade" you'd probably not agree. It is not my sharpest blade, it is the tool that works best for cutting cheese, because it has the lowest drag force and does an acceptable job at overcoming the binding force.

Yes, and those have nothing to do with sharpness as I noted earlier. You don't need a sharp blade to slice cheeze because the rupture pressure is really low, the main contribution to the force needed is the drag on the sides of the blade. Reducing this doesn't make the blade sharper. For example if you ground grantons into a chef's knife would you call this making it sharper, no, but it will reduce side drag, similar for example if you ground a large fuller into a bowie, this could improve the cutting ability but would you call it "sharpening" the blade, similar to mirror polishing the flats.

The sharpest blade would probable be a very thin blade made out of obsidian, because of the fine edge you can get due to the molecular structure of the material.

Generally you are not seeing that level of thickness on the edges of cracks of crystals, the edges on glass for example when it breaks are about a 1000 times the thickness of the actual atoms, very sharp edges in general are about a tenth of a micron at the very edge. When they are fairly blunt (stop slicing paper) they are about 100-1000 times thicker, you can then actually see the thickness directly even under low magnification.

-Cliff
 
Yes, and those have nothing to do with sharpness as I noted earlier. [...]

Yes! Which is why I was asking what makes something sharp, not "What makes something cut well".

So, about the Blackjack and the South Fork - care to share their angles?

Very sharp edges - I read that you can get the edge as thin as 0,5µm, but that's about it.

regards, Keno
 
richardallen said:
... why I was asking what makes something sharp ...

At a basic level, even abrasion with minimal distortion.

So, about the Blackjack and the South Fork - care to share their angles?

The Blackjack small has the standard full convex grind which I modified to a shallower grind by grinding the blade flat to a stone as done on single bevel scandinavian blades so the light curvature is from the stone only. This levels the edge at about 8 per side. The South Fork is usually micro-beveled at 20 for comparisons with a primary edge of 8-12 per side. I have a HSS blade at 65 HRC which will likely be one of the sharpest once I start working with it. It takes a lot though to get to the point where steels are significantly different at optimal sharpness, and the differences tend to be small except in extremes.

Very sharp edges - I read that you can get the edge as thin as 0,5µm, but that's about it.

Yes that is the magnitude, Verhoeven has measured them slightly smaller, and there are better steels than he was working with, and possibly better abrasives, so about 0.1 micron is likely optimal.

-Cliff
 
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