How to attach pins

Not so, Bill. The glue or epoxy not only hold the scales on but it also protects from water and moisture so that your tang doesn't rust.

The point of using pins when also glueing scales on is to keep the scales secure from moving and breaking the epoxy bond when lateral forces may be applied. That is why I think peening them is pointless when using epoxy. Peening was done in the old days before they had all these fancy epoxies and glues to hold shit together.
 
Are there any instances or experiences in which the handle came loose or failed on a handle that wasn't peened, and could have been avoided by peening?

There seem to be two schools of thought on this matter, even among professionals. I don't currently peen, but if I were convinced that it was important, I would change that part of my construction.
 
I read your posts and yes, I still think you are incorrect. Commercially available adhesives are designed with planned obsolescence, meaning that they are designed to fail after a given period of time. This is going to be the case with nearly any and all glues available to us.

Even if we ignore or refute the point above, pins will always be stronger against shearing forces and twisting. Peened pins will not release under extreme heat or cold, such as leaving a knife on your dashboard in the summer or on the deck in a cold winter and they will not break down nearly as rapidly over time.

It's also very difficult to use a pin out of spec, while nearly every knifemaker that uses epoxies breaks specification by using too thick or too thin of a bond. In many of these cases, they are breaking both of these specs at the same time. How many folks out there are reading the data sheets of their epoxies and checking to make sure their epoxy "rivets" aren't beyond the maximum bond thickness or that they have enough glue space between the tang and scales to meet the minimum bond thickness? Is that little bit of epoxy wiped on the pin going to be within spec and enough to create a reliable bond?

There's no special surface prep with peened pins either, are you blasting your tang and scales or just using sand paper? What about the pins and pin holes that are now relying on a glue bond? Acetone, alcohol, simple green or no solvent before assembly? Have you tested each method with your preferred glue?

As far as the tang rusting, while I do agree that glues help add strength and protect from rust, there are many examples of regular use, carbon steel blades in the U.S. and abroad that are 50, 75 or even 100 years old. Most of these are kitchen knives. Proper care trumps super adhesives any day of the week.

Pins need to be swelled to some degree so that they cannot slip out of the handle if the glue fails. There's no good way to glue pins into these holes (especially if you want to stay within specifications) and there's no glue strong enough with a practically infinite lifespan.

None of these super adhesives have stood the test of time the way pins have. The only place I trust glues is in hidden tang knives where they are only required to act as a solid friction surface. In this instance I have no problem with relying on them to hold blade, as long as it has hidden pins, notches in the tang and carved notches in the handle. Even better if the blade has a pin through the handle.
 
I'm no pro, but I'm with Dustin on this one. The epoxy is the strength of the bond, and the pins protect against shearing forces, the weakest part of the epoxy bond. Epoxy the scales, epoxy the pins, grind off the tops, and go.
 
I can't argue that peening pins won't help hold the scales on a little better but, I still believe epoxy + non-peened pins is plenty strong enough for an average knife. If someone could actually SHOW me how peened pins are stronger on an already epoxied knife handle then I might change my mind but, I don't really see the reason to take the time to do it.
 
Dustin
If you ever flex the handle on an epoxied full-tang knife you will have your answer. Acridsaint is much more eloquent than I. Temperature extremes, flexing, and shock will break a glue bond. Time will weaken it also. And if your steel just happens to rust under the epoxy, your scales will jump off! I have been doing cutlery for a long time, and I generally don't post unless I know what I'm talking about.
Gluing scales on will work for the most part, but don't you want your knives to be the best?
 
Bill, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say "flexing the handle". My handles generally don't flex. :confused: Anyway, I do want my knives to be the best that they can be. I've destructfully tested the ones that I've made that were just epoxied up with non-peened pins and they held up very well. The blade should break before your handle does.
Oh and if we wanted our knives to be "the best they could be", wouldn't loveless style bolts be stronger than simply peening pins? ;)

I do have a question though. When you peen the pin, how do you get it flush with the handle yet still have it be peened?
 
The pin hole is either counter sunk or reamed with a tapered reamer (the latter being the better of the two options imo). Because you have a taper that travels most or all of the distance of the hole in your scale, you will end up with an hour glass shaped pin that will not come out. If you just peen without tapering then the whole pin is swelled until it will not move in the hole, this pin can be removed a bit easier.

If you twist a full tang knife from the tip of the blade and the end of the handle, you will get a certain amount of flex in the tang. There's just no way around that, unless you're making all of your knives with very short, thick tangs. A real world example of how this force could be applied to a regular use knife is when someone is using the blade to pierce and crack a rib cage, not at all unheard of in the hunting world. Every deer, elk or whatever that gets skinned with the knife will work on that epoxy bond until the only thing left holding the knife together is your pins.

Meanwhile, you've got three different materials (handle, pin and tang) that all expand and contract at different rates in the cold winter deer season, as well as react differently to humidity changes and exposure to fluids. As these are expanding and contracting they are breaking down and weakening your pins' glue bond and creating a slip-fit pin.

A really easy way to see how much different metals will expand and contract is to take an old Canadian "toonie" coin and put it in the freezer over night. You can pop the center right out of one while it's cold. We can then easily apply this to brass/steel or even different types of steel in the case of 300 and 400 series pins and air hardening or carbon knife steels. In the case of the glue bond, once it's broken, it's gone, whereas the pins shrinking or swelling is just a temporary change.

Here's something to consider - I met a collector last year that had a modest Buster Warenski collection. One of the items he had was a set of Yin-Yang nunchaku that he had commissioned. He told the story of how he'd ordered the piece which took several years to complete as it was more of a friendly commission. One day while talking with him, Mr. Warenski explained the problem he was having interlocking all of the parts that made the Yin-Yang end caps and mechanically attaching them to the ivory shafts. The customer said "Just glue them, it's never coming out of my display case". His response was that 30 years after they were both dead and gone, someone might come by and pick up those chucks and start whirling them around. The last thing he wanted was an old glue bond to fail and have his reputation ruined years after he was in his grave, because who would be left to explain that they were never meant to be used?

The anecdotal experience of taking an epoxied knife apart doesn't account for test of time and temperature change, nor does one or two knives constitute a valid data set. I've not seen any good data out there that shows modern adhesives providing bonds significantly superior to mechanical ones, with or without including the time, temperature and flex variables we're talking about.

Reaming and swelling your pins takes just a few extra minutes to provide a lifetime of assurance. Of all the time consuming steps we take to make a knife, this is one of the easiest and well worth the time to me.
 
Thanks for taking the time to explain it Acrid. I still am unsure that the tang actually flexes like that but, I'll have to try it out. I imagine though, that it would have to be locked in a vise and torqued with vise grips or something to get it to flex and not just from cutting up an animal. It just seems like that would take a lot of force.
Well, you might have me sold on peening.. I'll at least give it a try. I remember a thread about this a while back and I think the majority agreed peening wasn't really necessary but, I could be wrong. Either way, I won't disagree that peened pins are stronger and if they add longevity to the handle then I'm all for it. Thanks again Acrid.
 
Guys, thanks for your input. I would imagine that if nothing else, peening would give longevity to the scales in the long haul where the epoxy will (possibly) fail. Afterall, it's about making the best product we can with what we have.
 
Just a clarification because I think my writing may have poorly illustrated the action, what I'm talking about with the deer is actually dressing it. When they want to get inside the rib cage, some hunters will pierce at the sternum and then twist or pry the ribs apart. In states without game limits and/or in situations where guides or more experienced hunters may be cleaning many deer or other large game animals for their less experienced companions, it could compound rather quickly.

By the way, I'm not saying one should use a knife for this, but many hunters would put that down as "normal use".
 
Of course Corby bolts are stronger than pins, as are screws.
 
So then if we are looking to make the best (strongest) knives we can, why do we even use pins at all instead of corbies?

By that logic maybe we should just make all knives solid carved handles. What we're getting at is that you should use the best methods possible with the materials you choose. You have to use what works best with your design and make compromises between art, design and strength.

There's a difference between opting to use specific hardware for design concerns and neglecting to use your chosen material in the most durable method (within reason) available to you.
 
By that logic maybe we should just make all knives solid carved handles. What we're getting at is that you should use the best methods possible with the materials you choose. You have to use what works best with your design and make compromises between art, design and strength.

There's a difference between opting to use specific hardware for design concerns and neglecting to use your chosen material in the most durable method (within reason) available to you.


I know man.. I'm just being a smarta$$. :jerkit: Thanks.
 
I'm with acridsaint on this one. I once broke an epoxy bond on one of my knives. The pins weren't peened and the scale lifted in place a couple of hundredths.

I do a little more than peen the end, I swell the pin. I use the pointy tip of a wood boring spade bit to (by hand) ream a taper in the holes of the handle scales. Then I swell the pins to fit. I once had to deconstruct a handle (decided on a different handle material after it was finished) and it was pretty amazing how nicely the pin swelled and fit the taper in the scale. It's mechanical insurance.
 
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