How to avoid and overcome a snake attack?

Things have changed alot with regards to bite procedures.Don't incise the site,no tourniquet etc. Well what happens if you can't get to a hospital because of location or a remote area.What happens if your by yourself and you can't make a long trek out to get medical assistance.Let's say you have to rely on self treatment,at least until you can manage to get medical assistance.Can you incise the wound and suck out as much venom and hope for the best.I know that some venoms can do alot of damage to muscles and flesh,so to me it makes sense to try and remove as much venom as possible.Good topic by the way.
 
I don't care what anyone says, the cotton-mouth is just plain out MEAN!
I grew up here in the Carolinas and I have have seen alot of snakes (rattlesnakes, copperheads, king-snake, racers, green-snakes, banded water snake, ect) and none of them are as mean and aggressive as the cotton-mouth.
Have you ever seen three men jump in a lake because a cotton-mouth CLIMBED IN THE BOAT!
 
Jeff Clark said:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Most snakes will automatically put enough venom in you to stop their normal prey. This is usually something smaller than a rabbit so the dose usually won't kill a human. One exception to this is a juvenile snake that will just let go with everything he's got.</font>
Click to expand...

Well, Jeff, according to what Findley Russell told me, and what I've read, you are partially right. Adult snakes can and do regulate the amount of venom injected. However, the vast majority of poisonous snake bites are NOT envenomations. They don't usually even waste enough to kill a mouse or rabbit. If you DO get a massive envenomation, it is usually because you have hold of the snake (snake handlers), or you have a fang or fangs stuck in your boot, or some other aggravating factor making the snake afraid.

Baby snakes are too young to have learned this control, and thus more often envenomate humans. They are the exception to the rule.

Actually, rattlesnake collecting is fun. I used to do it in the '60's and '70's when I lived in So. CA. The thing you had to be most careful about was traumatizing the snake; we used large pickle jars with wide mouths, and would just guide the snake into them with handling sticks. We did NOT pick the snakes up. This would send them into shock and they would not eat for months.

Billpaxton: I read up on the electric shock treatment of snake bites, and this goes back to one 'researcher' who used a sparkplug from an outboard motor in a very rural area to treat people! There have been studies with animals injected with venom and then shocked. No benefit was found. The 'researcher' was probably successful, as most of the patients, remember, were NOT envenomated. Thus, an herbal treatment would have been equally effective.

TOMBSTONE; there is evidence that nothing you can do will get a significant amount of venom out once it is injected. There is a device called a Sawyer venom extractor (as mentioned above by Jebediah) available from the Univ. of AZ, but its' proponents are few, and the device doesn't remove much venom under the most ideal conditions. Cutting and sucking is a big no no.

Jebediah also mentioned a new antivenom (the word used to be antivenin, it is still spelled both ways and means the same thing); I perused the U of AZ site at length and could not find out anything about it. I would appreciate a reference.

Findley Russell told me 15 years or so ago that he had developed a human diploid antivenom (Polyvalent Crotaloid; good for all pit vipers in the USA) for Wyeth, but they wouldn't put it on the market, due to the high cost and low profit. This would make the antivenom non dangerous, as it wouldn't cause anaphylaxis, as the old horse serum often does. I would like to think that they finally got their act together and got a product on the market. The rabies vaccine was made human diploid about 20 or so years ago, and the shots are NOT PAINFUL.

Hope this helps,

Walt
 
Speaking of "...presence of protective boots or clothing..."

I recall seeing protective clothing called 'snake chaps' (worn over the trousers) at an outdoor/sports store. The material is touted to be impenetrable to snake bite. This would seem a good basic precaution. Since its very probable that the majority of snake bites occur at leg level? Of course wearing canvas or leather boots instead of sandals and not wearing short pants would be prudent too.
 
I've got a pair of chaps that I will sell you. They work, but they are awfully hot to wear in the south. I wore them while dove hunting a couple of years but due to the heat, I just decided to not wear them and keep a lookout for rattlers.

------------------
I live in my own little world, but it's ok, they know me here.
 
Jeez; this information was hard to find! My hat is off to Jebediah for giving me the tip on this subject.

Even a UC San Diego multi layered, supposedly definitive website had WRONG information on it; the most recent reference sited there was 1985!!

Fortunately (harrumph) we Emergency Docs are at the forefront of acute treatment, and I finally found the information at this site:
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic541.htm

Just skip all the way to the bottom, and read about CroFab. This is a 'affinity-purified, mixed monospecific crotalid antivenom ovine Fab'. This means that the stuff was made from sheep (not horses), and the antibodies against the venom were separated out (fractionated) so that you get less of the stuff that doesn't do you any good.

This product has actually been on the market for 4 years; it appears to be much superior to the Wyeth Polyvalent Crotaloid Antivenin (equine), which was the previous treatment.

It would be worth insisting that a doctor treating you or someone in your family for snake envenomation contact someone at a major poison control center and at least discuss this product, of which he quite possibly might not be aware.

Remember CroFab. It sounds like a real good product.

Walt Welch MD
 
I too want to thank Walt, Jebediah and everyone posting to this thread. It has helped me re-visit what has been buried deep in my inner brain cells for a long time. It helped to get it out. Why I feel better now, I'm not sure. Pehraps it's the continuing education/information posted here. Walt, I took a keen interest in one of your references to this extent..." About 8,000 people a year receive venomus bites in the United Stated and about 6 victims die." Sure, that's 6 too many, but what a great ratio. It tells me that caring, professional people like yourself and Jebediah, research and medical institutions/associations, early treatment, state of the art antiveniums and EDUCATION all work together to help not only the wilderness hiker, but any snake bite victum anywhere in the world. I wrote the name of the new medicine on a small peice of paper, next to my blood type, and put it back into my wallet. A good survival tactic, much better than a snake-bite kit..in my opinion.

Are there any current-day, high-tech. medicines for spider bites, or are such bites under control with regard to human reactions? Spyder bites would seem to be so much more common than sanke bites. I know, it is a whole nother subject. But the truth for me is...I'm not sure how to treat (any) spider bite, other than get quick medical attention.
 
I've used the Chippewa snake boots and found them acceptable. Some of the snake boots sold by Cabela's look a little better. One pair (Quest) is as low as about $90.

I also have the chaps from Rattlers. They are tolerable for leisurely walks in moderate weather. I once wore them in Arizona in 100 degree heat and the legs of my trousers were soaked with sweat within an hour, even though the chaps are loose enough to allow for some air circulation. One good thing about the chaps is that they offer some protection above the knees for when you are walking on steep sidehill where there's a possibility of being hit above the knees.

A couple friends use just the gaiters and like them. However, I like the fact that the boots force you to put on the protection. If snake boots are the only boots you have with you, you aren't as likely to skip the protection as with gaiters.

DPD.
 
...Some times your intended meal will have other ideas and will want to come up and inform you of its differing opinion.

{Just having fun with you Lance Gothic
wink.gif
Actually, I like your perspective.}
 
There are antivenins for spiders and scorpions and other poisonous animals. Get yourself to a hospital quickly if bitten by one.

Walt
 
I found this old thread while I was trawling for some reading material. Having lived my whole life in the Aussie bush I thought I'd add my .02 for anybody who is interested. I think us Aussies take a bit of perverse pleasure from telling everybody how dangerous our fauna is. But as usual the threat is massively overstated and many more people die on the roads from drinking too much booze than get taken by sharks and crocs or bitten by snakes. In fact I have felt much more frightened when I was camping in the woods near Auburn California while I was in the U.S. a few years back and have my mates talking about bears and cougars all night.

Anyway, where I live I see snakes once every few days in summer and take the following precautions. Like Steve says; our snakes are very venemous and can kill you easily. There are also agrresive breeds like tiger snakes that will come for you at a decent speed.

1) Stomp. Snakes are very sensitive to ground vibration and most will clear out of the way when they can feel you. If I am walking through grass, near water and any other places they like to hang out then I make as much noise as I can.

2) Wear boots - obviously.

3) Carry a walking stick - For protection and for pinning them while you unsheath your knife if you are hungry. They are pretty good eating but I haven't tried one since I was a kid when we used to kill them all the time.

4)Be extra carefull at the start of summer. The snakes are sluggish and slower to get ut of your way and more likely to be lying somewere open to get warm. The also have had the whole winter hibernation to stock up on venom. Most fatal snake bites occur at the beggining of summer. Sometimes when I am running trails they won't bother to get out of the way, even if I hit them with a rock. I usualy just hurdle these at high speed. It makes for good interval training.

This is the same logic that I use when I don't go surfing at sunrise or sunset at the start of the whale migration, when the great white sharks are swimming up and down the coast.

5) Don't stick any body part into dark places. This is something you learn from a young age in OZ because there are also deadly spiders hiding under logs and other dark places. This is where your stick comes in handy in the bush.

I've never had a snake curl up under my sleeping bag for the night or any of the other horror stories that you hear. But I have heard heaps of first hand accounts of them coming into tents and houses.

I reckon the most dangerous place for venoumous bities is an untidy shed in your back yard with plenty of places for snakes and spiders to hide and rodents (snake food) to breed.
 
Hi Golok,


This thread is up my alley as I am somewhat of a lay-herpetologist.
Snakes are actually not at all "slippery". The King Cobra is actually the largest venomous snake species in the world with a recorded length of 18 feet!!!! They are enormous and quite menacing. They are, of course, quite docile if left undisturbed. They have a Neuro-toxic venom which is not as potent as smaller Cobra species. The Cape Cobra of South Africa is the most venomous Cobra species and only grows to about 6-7 feet in length. The King Cobra virtually feeds on other snakes exclusively, and because of its size, it does not need very toxic venom.

The other dangerous snake in your region, which is the one I would really worry about, is the Reticulated Python. They have been known to eat humans, and there have been many documented cases where the partly digested human remains have been removed from large specimens. These snakes are the longest in the world at between 30 and forty feet in length!!!! The South American Anaconda is the bulkiest/heaviest snake, and the largest specimen was measured at around 30 feet.

Not one single snake species will attack without provocation.
 
Rattle snakes are hostile. They aren't hostile. Are. Aren't.

You will have no doubts what its intentions are, when you stumble across one in the Mojave Desert. The Mojave Green I almost stepped on was completely pacific. It was coiled in a neat dinner plate sized coil, soundlessley confident that no one wanted to mess with it. It never even rattled as I stepped a few inches away from it... When I idly looked down and noticed it, I discovered an ability to fly backwards...

Other rattle snakes have been loud and insistant that they were ready to poison anyone within reach. I discovered one of these in particular, 3 feet up the side of the bank of the dry stream bed I was walking up. A couple more feet, and he would have zapped me.

I have sat down on granite boulders in the Sierras during backpacking trips, only to have scads of hidden baby rattlesnakes buzz away their warnings to me. I jumped away.

So, was the snake mad, sad, bad or indifferent to me? God knows. All I know is that if you get to close to them, they have a pair of hypodermic needles filled with poison for you. So what am I saying? Just this; watch your step. Nature is profoundly indifferent to whether you live or die.

---------
As I recall, when out hunting, they didn't like it when my Labradow would race past, trampling them.
 
Golok,
I grew up in Louisiana, which has quite a few snakes it it. I've killed quite a few, stepped on, picked up, and had various other encounters hundreds of times. Never been bitten. Hunted, hiked, camped, fished all over the swamps, which is prime snake country. I always had the philosphy my father taught me, that is always assume there is a snake there, and always dress like you're going into a swamp full of snakes. Wear leather boots and add-on canvas chaps and blue jeans. Carry 6' stick or gun (shotgun preferably nowadays .38spl pistol with shot). I was (and still am)always on the lookout for a snake. Our biggest snakes over here seldom exceed 6' and hence cannot strike past probably 3-4' (hence the 6' stick). Walking thru thick undergrowth the stick and pistol w/shot make a dandy combination. Make noise when you can, be careful when you can't (hunting for example). Most of the time our snakes will avoid you if possible. In deep swamp, have noticed that big snakes (cotton-mouth moccassins) absolutely will not move out of your way, either you move or you kill them. Get too close and they will coil and wait for you. Hope that's helpful.
As you have different snakes, possibly more aggressive and certainly bigger, you will probably need even more stringent measures.
 
Originally posted by ThorTso
Not one single snake species will attack without provocation.
Click to expand...

Hey Thorsto,

I'm sure you are right about snakes aggresion. About the only truly agrresive animal in Australia is a Yarpie just after the wallabies have given the Springboks another pasting.

But how do explain a Tiger snakes behavior? I've been chased for up to 50-100m by these bastids. Interestingly, I was talking this one over with a few mates and we reckon this only occurs around man made area like orchards and market gardens. My snake sitings in the wild are usualy much more fleeting.

Interested in your thoughts.
 
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