How to get more durable wood, without stabalization.

Ok. Just took the wood out to dry. Wiped them off.

https://imgur.com/a/OWzvICe

Btw does anyone know know how to post a normal picture without all the imgur stuff showing up?

Anyway, tung oil left, linseed right. I messed with the white balance, and some other stuff, to get as close as I could to what I'm seeing in person. These are just small samples, but the both got noticeably darker which is to be expected, and isn't necessarily a bad thing if you ask me. I both seem to be the exact same color to my eye (in terms of darkening). If I do this on the saya, I hope I dont loose too much contrast between the different parts of the wood that are there naturally.

I'll update again after they've both dried a bit.
 
Use "direct link" in imgur rather than their image link. The direct link option gives this forum what it wants - a pure picture reference without any other gingerbread around the outside.
 
D-weaver said:
Use "direct link" in imgur rather than their image link. The direct link option gives this forum what it wants - a pure picture reference without any other gingerbread around the outside.
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I'm using the phone app. I've used the get link short cut, but also have held my finger on the image and got the link that way, and still had the same results.

Idk I'll try to mess with it some more. One of these days I need to get a computer again. Dont see that happening soon though, I still have a lot of knifemaking purchases before that day comes.
 
Blankblank said:
Also update. The tung oil seems preferable so far. the color is pretty much the same, and its already much dryer.
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if you want BLO that dries, you'll either have to experiment with adding chemical dryers (not so healthy, but no rule that you can't use gloves, I guess) or buy the commercial stuff that has chemical dryers.

My experience with BLO is that it's thicker building than tung oil, and especially vs. teak oil, but the commercial stuff from klean strip is good at drying. It has a pretty gross transition period where it's sticky, but it solves itself within a couple of days.

I occasionally hear from woodworkers who flatly state that commercial boiled linseed oil causes them to cough or have a reaction -maybe it's true. I haven't noticed it. I've found what you're finding, though - the color from all three (teak, tung, linseed) is about the same. How they feel and build differs a little.

Blankblank said:
I'm using the phone app. I've used the get link short cut, but also have held my finger on the image and got the link that way, and still had the same results.

Idk I'll try to mess with it some more. One of these days I need to get a computer again. Dont see that happening soon though, I still have a lot of knifemaking purchases before that day comes.
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Bummer. I'm using a computer, of course - the app is limited seemingly by what makes them money and drives meme creation, etc.
 
There are commercial BLO that are safe for skin contact/food preparation.

I mostly use Tru Oil because it changes the color the least and is a bit more durable then other oils and can be polished.

Bigger projects get the BLO, on cutting boards or woods I want to darken I use food grade LO (needs time to dry properly).
 
FredyCro said:
I use food grade LO (needs time to dry properly).
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Same here - food grade types (non drying) are often labeled flaxseed oil. I've made pine/dammar varnish with that before (no dryers, has to have UV light to cure).

if you have a reference for food safe BLO that dries well, would you mind naming it?
 
D-weaver said:
Same here - food grade types (non drying) are often labeled flaxseed oil. I've made pine/dammar varnish with that before (no dryers, has to have UV light to cure).

if you have a reference for food safe BLO that dries well, would you mind naming it?
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I can name them, but I guess it wouldn't help you since they are european brands. One is called Clou Arbeitsplätten Öl and the other one is called Belinka Oil Food Contact. Both are unspecified mix of oil, but both fulfill standard for food contact safe once cured. Both have a specific smell, are drying oils and I am sure consist mostly out of BLO.

Your home depot store should have something similiar I guess.

Edit: check rustins work top oil on Amazon US. Also says its a quick drying oil safe for food contact.
 
FredyCro said:
I can name them, but I guess it wouldn't help you since they are european brands. One is called Clou Arbeitsplätten Öl and the other one is called Belinka Oil Food Contact. Both are unspecified mix of oil, but both fulfill standard for food contact safe once cured. Both have a specific smell, are drying oils and I am sure consist mostly out of BLO.

Your home depot store should have something similiar I guess.

Edit: check rustins work top oil on Amazon US. Also says its a quick drying oil safe for food contact.
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Thanks!! appreciate the suggestions and will track them down if they're available here. Sometimes things that aren't available on the easy home store or amazon side do show up in curator or artist supply places (or even obscure health food suppliers)
 
Well. After checking on them today, they seemed pretty similar. The linseed oil one seemed dry. At least to the touch. I went ahead and put some wipe on poly on both pieces (since that is what I prefer to use), but if i ad more, i will likely use the spray on, just because the wierd shapes make it a bit od putting the wipe on stuff on.

Btw does anyone have any recommendations for getting a food finish with the spay on poly? It always seems rougher than the wipe on stuff, I've changed everything, the distance I'm spraying from, the speed I move, the amounts of crossover between each spray, and I get the same results.

I can get a pretty good look with spray paint to something, but not when I'm applying spray on poly to wood. Idk.
 
apply more than you think you'll need and sand it back - wet sand it, and then polish it to the level that you desire.

I'm not sure what spray on poly is as it used to be a wiping oil finish, and lacquer and conversion varnishes were the spray types. With the current water based finishes now, they can call them anything and I don't think they have the same meaning:
- nitro lacquer in the old days - evaporative finish that can be repaired easily, or added
- varnish (like on violins and then furniture) - a curing finish that permanently cures instead of just evaporating
- oil based polyurethane - a curing finish that's softer in consumer form

At any rate, whatever they are, if you want a smooth finish without wiping on a million coats, spray a few coats on and do an initial wet sanding back (with water) to get an even surface and confirm that you didn't burn through the finish to the wood, and then polish the result when it's hard and fully cured (or use fine steel wool or whatever you like to set the final satin finish).
 
The can on the right is an oil based poly. A good choice over the oil finish. Not certain if the spray is also oil. I suggested earlier you let the oil finish fry for at least 72 hours before top coating. Don't know if you did that. Sand after the oil is not only dry to touch but cured. Dry to touch is an illusion - just means it is all absorbed. Leave it on a cotton cloth and you might see some staining of the cloth which tells you that it is not really dry.

I recommend you don't mix and match top coats. My preference would be the wipe on rather than the spray just because I can control the coverage. Follow the drying recommendations. You should not need to sand between every coat but I would lightly sand with fine grit - no less than 320 - for at least, the last 1 or 2 coats (out of 5 or 6 you might need to create the satin finish). The spray version introduces air into the finish and so requires sanding between each coat.
 
I know you mentioned the poly over the oil, which should be fine if there are no adhesion issues, but down the road if you'd like to do a lot of these quickly, you can use dewaxed shellac and basically rub it right into the oil. if the oil is a drying oil, it will dry in the wood without having to be exposed, and the shellac will bond to the wood and then bond to itself, forcing oil on the surface to the top of the shellac, which you can then wipe off of the shellac as the shellac will form a barrier. If it's linseed oil or tung oil, you'll *want* to wipe the oil off as much as possible. The shellac will not need to dry long and polyurethane will adhere to it even without sanding.

It's kind of a magic universal transition thing - but if you don't finish too often, then it may not be used quickly enough to make it worthwhile - it has a shelf life of a couple of years (zinnser's seal coat). you only need a thin transition coat. the shellac spray won't do as it's not dewaxed and things may adhere to it, but it's not as safe as using the "sealcoat" which is dewaxed.

Your spray's MSDS shows aliphatic hydrocarbon as 50% or more, so it's oil based.

if you're bored, you can actually write an email to minwax and they should respond in terms of how long linseed oil needs to dry before they'd guarantee adhesion. Finish and glue companies are often helpful and their engineering/chemistry staff will provide the answers - it won't be some lackey who just started at the bottom of the rung by answering the midnight telephone.

there are changes coming for at least some of the oil based poly products, though - VOC limitations. In my area, we've lost the true regular stuff and had it replaced with "350 VOC" versions. Getting advice on those isn't quite as helpful as I think they are required to tell you "oh, it works just the same as the old stuff".

Beware when shopping if you're looking for oil based, some of the water based cans are poorly marked on purpose to get you to buy WB as someone (EPA?) is on a huge push to get solvent based finishes phased out for water based.
 
D-weaver said:
I know you mentioned the poly over the oil, which should be fine if there are no adhesion issues, but down the road if you'd like to do a lot of these quickly, you can use dewaxed shellac and basically rub it right into the oil. if the oil is a drying oil, it will dry in the wood without having to be exposed, and the shellac will bond to the wood and then bond to itself, forcing oil on the surface to the top of the shellac, which you can then wipe off of the shellac as the shellac will form a barrier. If it's linseed oil or tung oil, you'll *want* to wipe the oil off as much as possible. The shellac will not need to dry long and polyurethane will adhere to it even without sanding.

It's kind of a magic universal transition thing - but if you don't finish too often, then it may not be used quickly enough to make it worthwhile - it has a shelf life of a couple of years (zinnser's seal coat). you only need a thin transition coat. the shellac spray won't do as it's not dewaxed and things may adhere to it, but it's not as safe as using the "sealcoat" which is dewaxed.

Your spray's MSDS shows aliphatic hydrocarbon as 50% or more, so it's oil based.

if you're bored, you can actually write an email to minwax and they should respond in terms of how long linseed oil needs to dry before they'd guarantee adhesion. Finish and glue companies are often helpful and their engineering/chemistry staff will provide the answers - it won't be some lackey who just started at the bottom of the rung by answering the midnight telephone.

there are changes coming for at least some of the oil based poly products, though - VOC limitations. In my area, we've lost the true regular stuff and had it replaced with "350 VOC" versions. Getting advice on those isn't quite as helpful as I think they are required to tell you "oh, it works just the same as the old stuff".

Beware when shopping if you're looking for oil based, some of the water based cans are poorly marked on purpose to get you to buy WB as someone (EPA?) is on a huge push to get solvent based finishes phased out for water based.
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That's unfortunate. I mean I get it, there could be better things for the environment. But are wood finishes really such a big problem that we need them regulated to this point? I mean, I seriously think there are a lot of bigger environmental dangers that we should worry about rather than that.

Anyway. I dont necessarily plan to do this all the time. But if I think I will, I'll look into getting some dewaxed shellac to use.
 
RayseM said:
The can on the right is an oil based poly. A good choice over the oil finish. Not certain if the spray is also oil. I suggested earlier you let the oil finish fry for at least 72 hours before top coating. Don't know if you did that. Sand after the oil is not only dry to touch but cured. Dry to touch is an illusion - just means it is all absorbed. Leave it on a cotton cloth and you might see some staining of the cloth which tells you that it is not really dry.

I recommend you don't mix and match top coats. My preference would be the wipe on rather than the spray just because I can control the coverage. Follow the drying recommendations. You should not need to sand between every coat but I would lightly sand with fine grit - no less than 320 - for at least, the last 1 or 2 coats (out of 5 or 6 you might need to create the satin finish). The spray version introduces air into the finish and so requires sanding between each coat.
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They were only small little test pieces to see what would happen, and give me an idea of what to expect.

I ended up cutting them in half a little while ago, and sanding them a bit. They both seemed to have had pretty good penetration, and seemed to be dry from what I could tell.

While I was letting the test pieces dry I left them both sitting on a paper towel. I didnt really see them leave much oil behind on it. But again. The small size probably really helped speed things along.
 
Blankblank said:
That's unfortunate. I mean I get it, there could be better things for the environment. But are wood finishes really such a big problem that we need them regulated to this point? I mean, I seriously think there are a lot of bigger environmental dangers that we should worry about rather than that.

Anyway. I dont necessarily plan to do this all the time. But if I think I will, I'll look into getting some dewaxed shellac to use.
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if you find the quart can of "zinnser seal coat", it's dewaxed and they do something to make it last longer than self-mixing shellac would last (keep the lid closed). It's good for 2 or 3 years before it won't harden well. It's got an amber color, so not so great for really light colored woods, great for medium colored woods and you can adjust the effect of the finish color by only applying a very thin amount and using whatever you want as a topcoat over it. I am not aware of any water based or oil based finish that's common that won't adhere to shellac, and the trick where it sticks to the wood and creates a barrier and presents the oil to the top of the finish is a handy one.

If you've ever heard of "french polish", it's an overused term, but the process is actually to lubricate the shellac being applied with oil so that you can keep applying finish even after it would stick to a brush or rag - the rag is oiled but also with shellac in it -the shellac comes out of the rag ("rubber" is the term for basically balled up linen used as the rag) sticks to itself but the rag doesn't stick to the shellac due to the oil.

Because of that, you can actually apply linseed oil for a short period if you want, and rub the shellac right into the wet oil, wipe off the wet oil, let the thin layer of shellac dry for an hour or two and immediately go to a top coat.

As far as the environmental concerns - they are, of course, kind of nonsense from a consumer level but I think the issue is that the aliphatic hydrocarbons are sort of like putting half a gallon of gasoline out in a tub and letting it dry into the air.
There are some *really* unhealthy water based finishes, too, but they're not sold to consumers. It's a shame, because the typical consumer use - oil stain with an oil top coat - is easier to get right than water based stuff and as good as water based stuff has gotten, you can read the reviews on home depot, etc, and find customers with adhesion problems a lot more often in the WB finishes.
 
Blankblank said:
So I'm working on a saya for a kitchen knife right now. It's at the stage where its pretty much ready for glue up, but before I do this I wanted to see what my options are to possibly get the wood to be a bit more durable than it is right now.

The wood is fairly highly figured, spalted water oak. Which is really the only reason I'm concerned about this at all. I cut off just enough to make this saya, and I have a block that is big enough to make one or two handles depending what I decide to do with it. If it ends up being used for handles I'm likely going to send it off to be properly stabilized. However since the wood I'm using right now is just going to be a saya, I'm not as concerned with the durability. It shouldn't see too much stress over its life.

"If no one has any suggestions, my current plan is to maybe get a good bit of oil soaked into it then do a poly finish over that. I think that may be good enough for what I'm asking or this particular wood. However if anyone has something they would suggest to do in this situation I would love to hear it."
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Hope this reply isn't too late to be useful. It depends how advanced is the spalting process. Can you easily indent the wood with a fingernail? For already shaped sections where you are easily able to make a mark you could apply low-viscosity cyanoacrylate glue (i.e. "Super Glue") directly to the wood. Then, being careful not to change the shape of the piece of wood, (and following prescribed safety procedures) hand sand any dried glue visible above the surface. Then apply any non-penetrating finish as per its directions. By the way, as I've been taught, the black lines on the wood are "barrier" lines created to separate two competing colonies of the same fungus. Moist conditions must be present for spalting to occur and you must carefully choose pieces of wood as these are the same conditions that allow for rot.
 
buckthorn said:
Hope this reply isn't too late to be useful. It depends how advanced is the spalting process. Can you easily indent the wood with a fingernail? For already shaped sections where you are easily able to make a mark you could apply low-viscosity cyanoacrylate glue (i.e. "Super Glue") directly to the wood. Then, being careful not to change the shape of the piece of wood, (and following prescribed safety procedures) hand sand any dried glue visible above the surface. Then apply any non-penetrating finish as per its directions. By the way, as I've been taught, the black lines on the wood are "barrier" lines created to separate two competing colonies of the same fungus. Moist conditions must be present for spalting to occur and you must carefully choose pieces of wood as these are the same conditions that allow for rot.
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I don't remember it being particularly soft. I've done the project I was talking about already.

I do still have some of the wood left I want to get more use out of though. So I'll definitely check it before going forward.
 
UV resin is relatively cheap and if taken out into bright sunshine will cure in a few minutes after it has been brushed on. Sand back any imperfections and either leave satin of hand buff to bring it back to high gloss.

When I'm not making knives I make fishing lures. UV resin is the protective coat that goes on last after your paint job. It stands up perfectly to constant immersion in salt water and the odd smack into rocks, should last a lifetime in a kitchen.
 
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