How To How to offer a design to a company properly?

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Liosha

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Oct 29, 2022
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I tried to write directly to the company like CIVIVI and QSP but it doesn't seem to move anything. I'm not trying to pry into secrets (I think I'll get to them at some point), I just wanna know the general stuff like where to write to them and maybe something else. Will be appreciated.
 
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Damn, is it really that complex? I mean, I don't even know how all that works. I'm just a beginner that loves knives and has an idea. I guess they should have all those developers and engineers, I'm here just with the idea😄. Isn't a sketch that shows all the details enough?
 
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So companies usually have in-house or associated designers that are familiar with their production capabilities and the costs/times involved, along with profits and payments. Unless you’re footing the costs for the production, most companies aren’t going to simply take your design and risk their capital to produce something that may or may not sell (or may or may not even be feasible depending on your design). At the very least, having a working prototype is a good first step.
 
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WalterDavis said:
So companies usually have in-house or associated designers that are familiar with their production capabilities and the costs/times involved, along with profits and payments. Unless you’re footing the costs for the production, most companies aren’t going to simply take your design and risk their capital to produce something that may or may not sell (or may or may not even be feasible depending on your design). At the very least, having a working prototype is a good first step.
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Yes, I understand that they don't take every design that they see. But, how can I know their possibilities? Moreover, I don't understand how my single version will affect it, because making it one unit or making it a thousand units is a different thing, I guess.
madcap_magitian said above that I should reach an OEM for them to make it. Is it like a company that can make it one unit? And if so, who can it be?
 
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Liosha said:
Yes, I understand that they don't take every design that they see. But, how can I know their possibilities? Moreover, I don't understand how my single version will affect it, because making it one unit or making it a thousand units is a different thing, I guess.
madcap_magitian said above that I should reach an OEM for them to make it. Is it like a company that can make it one unit? And if so, who can it be?
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Buy a few basic tools and make a few yourself. A lot of makers started with basically nothing. A dremel, a harbor freight belt sander, and a way to drill straight holes. And you can trade the first two for hand tools. But if you make one, you can see if the design actually functions, and if you make a few you’ll see if the amount of detail can be reproduced fairly easily.

You can take your design to smaller makers also, or local machine shops and have them produced in small quantities. But you will definitely have to foot the bill and then sell them to recoup the costs (unless you’re independently wealthy).

The other option would be to start attending a few bigger knife shows and talk to some people in person, or find manufacturers forums where they interact with people and ask there. But I’m betting they get plenty of fancy pictures with no substance and no actual machining parameters, so make sure you have an idea on thicknesses, materials, lock interface, etc

The reason you’re not getting a ton of ‘here’s my contact in the industry’ responses is because there’s more to designing a knife than just the outline. A company has to put out functional, safe products with enough appeal to sell enough units to be profitable. So you either have to put in the work to prove your design, or put in the work to meet people who can do that for you. Either way, chances are good it’s going to take more than just an email.
 
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Liosha said:
Yes, I understand that they don't take every design that they see. But, how can I know their possibilities? Moreover, I don't understand how my single version will affect it, because making it one unit or making it a thousand units is a different thing, I guess.
madcap_magitian said above that I should reach an OEM for them to make it. Is it like a company that can make it one unit? And if so, who can it be?
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Do you have any idea of what it takes to do any of this? Its very expensive and can take months or even years. Do a search here for Jack Wolf Knives and read the thread that follows the efforts to get the first knife designs into production.
 
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I’m not sure if this is exactly what you mean, or if this is relevant… but in the process of researching/reading reviews of a specific Spyderco model, the Amalgam, I found it quite interesting the story of Brian Lai, and how he submitted a design to Spyderco. There’s a real long thread on Spyderco Forums called “Lets get hyped on the Amalgam” where he goes into pretty specific details of his experience and the process. I found it really interesting. You could tell he was really excited, it was cool to read.
 
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A short version of the Brian Lai/ Spyderco Amalgam story.

Bran Lai was an engineering student. He submitted both a CAD drawing and a plastic prototype to Spyderco. He had to change the design twice, and Spyderco made changes of their own, before the final design was accepted and produced.

If I'm not mistaken, both CIVIVI and QSP are both Chinese companies. If you submitted a design to them, and if they actually liked it and wanted to make it, what's to keep them from stealing the design? It's not like you can sue a Chinese company. And even if you had a US patent or design trademark, those mean nothing in China. I'm not saying that all Chinese knife companies are dishonest, I'm saying that you would have no legal protections if they are.

Brian Lai submitted his design to a very reputable American knife company (Spyderco). So I'm sure there was no risk of his design being stolen. He was also very fortunate that Eric Glesser was a good guy who was willing to consider an unsolicited design from someone who had no experience or reputation in the knife industry.

Here is a picture of one of Lai's CAD drawings that he sent to Spyderco, and a picture of one iteration of his prototype.

n7OMjg8.jpg

ui4Zy3L.jpg
 
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killgar said:
A short version of the Brian Lai/ Spyderco Amalgam story.

Bran Lai was an engineering student. He submitted both a CAD drawing and a plastic prototype to Spyderco. He had to change the design twice, and Spyderco made changes of their own, before the final design was accepted and produced.

If I'm not mistaken, both CIVIVI and QSP are both Chinese companies. If you submitted a design to them, and if they actually liked it and wanted to make it, what's to keep them from stealing the design? It's not like you can sue a Chinese company. And even if you had a US patent or design trademark, those mean nothing in China. I'm not saying that all Chinese knife companies are dishonest, I'm saying that you would have no legal protections if they are.

Brian Lai submitted his design to a very reputable American knife company (Spyderco). So I'm sure there was no risk of his design being stolen. He was also very fortunate that Eric Glesser was a good guy who was willing to consider an unsolicited design from someone who had no experience or reputation in the knife industry.

Here is a picture of one of Lai's CAD drawings that he sent to Spyderco, and a picture of one iteration of his prototype.

n7OMjg8.jpg

ui4Zy3L.jpg
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Thank you for providing such information.
Yeah, I also thought about them stealing the design, but, I don't see any other opportunity for me as a beginner. I can't even imagine that a company like Spyderco or Benchmade, or at least CRKT would take my design. I have no idea of how to work with autoCAD, I mean, I'm a student.
Actually, I'm now having time of deciding what major to take in college. Maybe I should take some sort of engineering or something where they teach working with all that graphic stuff.
 
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RS Components makes DesignSpark Mechanical, which is a pretty easy to learn 3d modeling program, from that you can easily output STLs that you can 3d print, as well as generate templates that someone could cut on a CNC waterjet or plas table.
As for college, keep this a hobby unless you really know you want to do it full time, as the stuff you will learn in your degree will only apply in general terms. They won't teach you how to make specific designs, and honestly this is a place where most guys are self (or rather community) taught. So just pick a major that either interests you a lot, or is something you can put up with for a decade or so that can make some money, then just practice and play with designing.
 
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Liosha said:
Thank you for providing such information.
Yeah, I also thought about them stealing the design, but, I don't see any other opportunity for me as a beginner. I can't even imagine that a company like Spyderco or Benchmade, or at least CRKT would take my design. I have no idea of how to work with autoCAD, I mean, I'm a student.
Actually, I'm now having time of deciding what major to take in college. Maybe I should take some sort of engineering or something where they teach working with all that graphic stuff.
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What kind of knife did you have in mind? There is a dramatic difference between a fixed blade and a folder. A bad fixed blade design can still be a functional knife, but a folder, while not a complex machine, is an assembly of interconnected and interdependent parts that must be carefully fitted to close tolerances. We have only to look at Bark River, a very experienced knife making company, and the widely erratic quality of their first folding knife attempt that has been iterating for several years and still isn't released. A fixed blade can be made from a draft paper sketch, a folder will take iterative engineering work, drafting, sketching, CAD/CAM, modeling that could range from clay and wood to 3D-printed prototypes, etc.

To make just one knife is no big deal, especially if it is a fixed blade, but it won't be a company that does it, you'll need to go to a knifemaker who is willing to try making your design. The knifemaker will know more than you, so he or she may tell you that your design is impractical or not feasible or just not a great knife design. You may also have to reach out to several people, because knifemakers also have a sense of their own skill and artistic interest, so any given knifemaker may think that what you are asking for is outside her skill range or outside his sense of artistic design and therefore decline to make it. Well-known knifemakers are highly unlikely to take your work because why would they, they all have years-long waiting lists for work as it is, and a much lower willingness to compromise on their own design and materials aesthetic. Cost for this could be from $300-$1,500 depending on what kind of knife you are making and what materials there are. Also the odds of someone being willing to make a custom folder to your specs I think are very low, because the odds of you having a functional folder design are also very low, so anyone with the skill to make a folder will also know that in taking on your project they are committing to a black hole of time commitment that is not going to be worth the aggravation.

To make even a small batch of machined knives is going to be thousands of dollars. Mechforce has done some very good OEM manufacturing in fixed and folding knives and has the capacity to do batches as small as ten pieces. However, economy of scale applies. The fixed costs for engineering and machine tool fixturing and setup do not change if you are doing ten pieces or ten thousand, only the variable costs in raw material and MRO inventory scale. No idea what Mechforce would charge. I myself have been tempted to design a small fixed blade out of frustration with the inability to find a small, pointy, lightweight wharncliffe defensive knife for running and see if Mechforce would make me a small batch. But I suspect it'd be in the thousands of dollars range, plus they are a general machine shop that does a lot of knives but doesn't specialize in them, so I don't think they heat treat in house, and you'd have to have blades sent to Peters or someone for heat treat as well, and possibly for coating if Mechforce can't do the coating you want (I don't think they can do DLC, for example).

If you get serious about this, you'd be much better off approaching a machine shop with small-batch experience with knives than a large company. I doubt Civivi would even answer your e-mail, and WE or Reate wouldn't set up to do a run for you without a commitment to 500+ pieces that you would be on the hook for buying and then selling yourself.

This famous saga from an ignorant (I do not mean this as a slight, I just mean it in terms of "Member has a design for a knife he really wants made but has no design or knifemaking experience") member can be instructive. He eventually got someone to make something, and he was happy with it. Good for him! A lot of other makers are like "That's still a bad idea," but, hey, a great guy did him a favor, and it turned out to his satisfaction.
 
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Anyone can make prototypes for very little money or experience. Use foam board (like the stuff used for presentations, etc.) available at office supply stores. Photocopy some of your designs & glue onto the boards then cut them out. Use thicker for the handle, thinner for the blade and parts. If you have wood working skills, even better. See how it all interacts, then do the inevitable redesign, rebuild, iterative process over and over until you get it just right. Only then approach any makers.

I have read that many makers will pass on designs that you may have sent to others unsolicited. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
 
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If I were in your shoes, the first thing I would do would be to either take a couple of classes while in school to learn auto cad or make friends with a another student that already knows it and get them to help with drafting your design. I’m no knife designer but it seems having your design in auto cad should be your primary goal to get started.

An auto cad design for beer ad on a bulletin board in the engineering dept may be all ya need! 😉
 
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Call me cynical, but the first thing I would do is hire an attorney who knows how to jump through the legal hoops of getting you a patent, and some real legal protection of your designs. Only then, would I consider offering my designs to a company.

Take a look at what happened to a couple of inventors who offered their designs to Sears, if you want some examples of being too trusting.
 
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I’d like to add that I’ve been to a few bladeshows recently and they’re are a lot of guys starting knife companies with no actual making experience. They literally get their designs into auto cad and then find a manufacturer to make it and bam, there’s a new knife company at table 357. I understand it may take some time and even a large chunk of change but I just find this business model soulless.

Primarily for 2 reasons. Most of them outsource their manufacturing overseas. And I respect and appreciate the 10,000 hrs or more a actual maker dedicates themselves to producing their product. So I guess I’m only interested in supporting makers rather than designer’s because of the level of skill and expertise that their product is proof of. Just my opinion though.

On the flip side, if you have an innovative idea that’s a game changer then I think that’s great and welcome it when the purpose is innovation. Or if you’re just looking to have your design made for yourself alone.

And as a consumer I would definitely be more inclined to give a product at least some consideration if it’s made stateside even if the company is strictly a designer. But the design would have to be killer.

Again, just my opinion. Which is of course always right! 😂
 
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