How to sharpen the tip. Holding angle by sight?

D

DavidL41

Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
160
When sharpening the tip of a kitchen knife I see a lot of videos saying to angle your hand higher so the tip can contact the stone.

I am having trouble imagining how you can easily get the matching angle for that portion of the blade touching the stone.

Is it as easy as keeping the blade locked at that angle and raising my hand and it is sharpening at the same angle throughout?

Need to try it out on the kitchen knives some more..
 
What cracked the secret of freehand sharpening for me was to stop worrying about angles and learning to feel when I had laid the edge flat on the stone. This took some practice.

Basically I lay the knife flat on the stone on one side (you don't actually have to lay it all the way flat) then I slowly raise the spine of the knife until I can feel that the edge has laid flat on the stone. You will feel a little 'click' sort of feeling as the shoulder of the edge is raised passed and you come to sit on the flat edge grind. Then a just sweep he knife on the stone keeping one side of the edge flat to the stone as I go heel to tip. This takes steady hands and practice. The worst thing you can do is go too fast.
 
DavidL41 said:
When sharpening the tip of a kitchen knife I see a lot of videos saying to angle your hand higher so the tip can contact the stone.

I am having trouble imagining how you can easily get the matching angle for that portion of the blade touching the stone.

Is it as easy as keeping the blade locked at that angle and raising my hand and it is sharpening at the same angle throughout?

Need to try it out on the kitchen knives some more..
Click to expand...
Hi,
Don't try to imagine, look with your eyes where the stone contacts the blade.
Or mark up the edge with permanent marker, do one stroke, then look where the marker is being removed.

To maintain angle throughout the tip all you have to do is pivot the blade throughout the curved parts like this gif.
The little green square indicates 90 degrees to the stone , and always finish the stroke on the stone (tip remains on stone)
The key is to make sure the edge is contacting stone (look).
If you've marked up the edge with permanent marker, after you do a stroke or two , you should be able to see if you're hitting the edge in the curved/tip area, if you need to pivot more or lift the handle more.
If the stone is vertical,like in a sharpmaker, then merely pivoting 90 to the stone is comfortable.
If stone is horizontal , you might throw in a little lifting of the handle for comfort.

Im2fC0G.gif


You can also mark up the blade like Jason Magruder to help you keep perpendicular, to know how much to pivot/rotate.
IMG_3511.jpg


whether you're doing scrubbing passes or one direction only passes,
just follow the curve, 90 to the stone, and when you do,
look to see that the edge is contacting the stone,
going away from yourself, look for daylight to diappear, shadow means contact

yes this means tilting the handle a little or pressing the edge with your other hand
but looking with your eyes is what you should focus on
Here is an example of a very recent video
Shearing off a Burr Using High Angle Passes - Steel_Drake

If that doesn't feel right, you can always go vertical,
by leaning your sharpening stone against a wall or book to make a bench stone sharmaker and just slice down the stone and pivot for tip, no handle lifting, finishing with tip on the stone (tip doesnt leave stone)
FTHZV98H9T4QPH9.RECTANGLE1.jpg
 
DavidL41 said:
When sharpening the tip of a kitchen knife I see a lot of videos saying to angle your hand higher so the tip can contact the stone.

I am having trouble imagining how you can easily get the matching angle for that portion of the blade touching the stone.

Is it as easy as keeping the blade locked at that angle and raising my hand and it is sharpening at the same angle throughout?

Need to try it out on the kitchen knives some more..
Click to expand...

Yes you can follow the curve without rotating the blade (although either works)... and you got it right... make sure you don't change the angle as you raise the handle. (There's an urge or belief that you need to also "twist" the blade to follow the curve, but this will lower the angle).

Try just placing the belly/tip area on the stone at the angle you want to sharpen at... raise and lower the handle without moving the knife back and forth... and you'll see how it contacts.
 
You know how pizza cutters have a wheel shaped blade? Imagine holding the edge of one of those on a stone at a given angle, with a dot on the blade at the point where it contacts the stone. Then imagine (still holding that angle) turning the blade. Think of what happens to that dot. It arcs up an away, but remains on the same plane the blade is tracked on. When hitting the tip, just envision that plane extending back into space and keep the handle/blade riding through it as you turn to sharpen the tip.
 
This^
The angle of the edge where the blade is parallel to the spine is a line going back perpendicular between the two. As you go into the belly and tip, that line begins to shift back along the spine - you have to elevate the handle to keep the same angle. You can get down at eye level and backlight the contact area while pressing the edge to a flat surface to see how changing the handle elevation changes the contact angle.

It doesn't matter what the rake path is across the stone, my rake path is almost always 45° as this reliably produces the largest possible contact surface and also the most resistance to shifting off the angle as the edge goes back and forth/starts and stops.

The amount the handle needs to be raised is more for a more pronounced belly, a shallow arc might need only a slight elevation.
 
Take your knife and try to cut something with the tip at the top of the belly on a flat surface without lifting the handle. You Can't

Just because the knife is layed down at a 20-15 degree angle doesn't change that, you have to lift the handle but hold the same angle by locking your wrist.
 
Take a look at Secret #3 of the Seven Secrets of Sharpening. In particular, the linked video is very instructive. It shows things in an easy to understand way.

You've also gotten lots of other good advice here. I just thought I'd add a little to it.

Brian.
 
I don't have much experience regrinding but just touching up my edge freehand on my sharpmaker rods I use my eyes very little and sense of touch to feel when the edge has laid flat on the stone very much.

This took me quite abit of practice.
 
I don't know if it is what you are looking for. Forgive me by the movie but I'm on a very odd position to film it. Not exactly this motion, back and forward motion keeping the angle consistent, but on a bench stone you raise the handle keeping the angle and this is what I want you pay attention.
Actually you have to imagine a circle on the curved part of the blade, imagine this circle radius and keep the pivot point stable.
 
Last edited:
Lapedog said:
What cracked the secret of freehand sharpening for me was to stop worrying about angles and learning to feel when I had laid the edge flat on the stone. This took some practice.

Basically I lay the knife flat on the stone on one side (you don't actually have to lay it all the way flat) then I slowly raise the spine of the knife until I can feel that the edge has laid flat on the stone. You will feel a little 'click' sort of feeling as the shoulder of the edge is raised passed and you come to sit on the flat edge grind. Then a just sweep he knife on the stone keeping one side of the edge flat to the stone as I go heel to tip. This takes steady hands and practice. The worst thing you can do is go too fast.
Click to expand...

^This.

It should be less about seeing it, or guess-timating the angle, and more about feeling it. I tried for a while, to always 'see' the apex touch the stone. Part of that was in always keeping the edge toward me, which also meant switching hands to keep the edge in view. I still rely on that somewhat, and it still has it's benefits. But, it's better to pay attention to that little 'bump' or 'click' felt when the spine is slowly raised, pivoting over the shoulder of the bevel and coming to 'rest' ('bump') when the bevel lays flush to the stone. Rock it back & forth a time or two, to confirm what you're feeling. Some fingertip pressure applied just behind the shoulder of the bevel in the portion on the stone will help you feel it, and also help to keep it flush when you begin to sweep the edge across the stone. And in that sweeping pass, too much hesitation is a bad thing, as the blade will tend to wobble the more you hesitate or stutter in the motion. Keep it fluid in one stroke, all the way to the tip. Then reset and do it again.

Practicing this on a pane of glass helps. The glass is a bit noisier in feedback, and it'll 'clink' or ring a bit when that little 'bump' is felt via your fingertips. You can also ink the bevels with a Sharpie, to confirm if the contact you're feeling is actually taking ink off the full width of the bevel (flush contact), or from the shoulder only (angle too low), or only adjacent to the apex (angle too high).


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
^This.

It should be less about seeing it, or guess-timating the angle, and more about feeling it. I tried for a while, to always 'see' the apex touch the stone. Part of that was in always keeping the edge toward me, which also meant switching hands to keep the edge in view. I still rely on that somewhat, and it still has it's benefits. But, it's better to pay attention to that little 'bump' or 'click' felt when the spine is slowly raised, pivoting over the shoulder of the bevel and coming to 'rest' ('bump') when the bevel lays flush to the stone. Rock it back & forth a time or two, to confirm what you're feeling. Some fingertip pressure applied just behind the shoulder of the bevel in the portion on the stone will help you feel it, and also help to keep it flush when you begin to sweep the edge across the stone. And in that sweeping pass, too much hesitation is a bad thing, as the blade will tend to wobble the more you hesitate or stutter in the motion. Keep it fluid in one stroke, all the way to the tip. Then reset and do it again.

Practicing this on a pane of glass helps. The glass is a bit noisier in feedback, and it'll 'clink' or ring a bit when that little 'bump' is felt via your fingertips. You can also ink the bevels with a Sharpie, to confirm if the contact you're feeling is actually taking ink off the full width of the bevel (flush contact), or from the shoulder only (angle too low), or only adjacent to the apex (angle too high).


David
Click to expand...

I find that if I hold the knife by the spine of the blade when sharpening it helps me feel that little click as the edge bevel lays flat. I sort of pinch the spine.
 
Last edited:
Obsessed with Edges said:
^This.

It should be less about seeing it, or guess-timating the angle, and more about feeling it.
David
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying conceptually, but....I'm having trouble even on a good 'feedback' stone like FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades AF, to 'feel' the angle. I just can't feel it. This could be because of my neuropathy disorder that causes reduced feeling/numbness in hands and fingertips, not sure. But I still have around 60% sensitivity, so I can still feel pretty well and I don't believe it's keeping me from sharpening as I've managed to get some good results on several blades now. Always have on my DMT as well, but as I've said elsewhere, the DMT provide much worse (like "bumpy") feedback to me, and so even though they get good results, I'm not that fond of using them. My challenge is, when I have a blade resting on the stone at the bevel angle, and rock it back and forth to visually flat, or too high, or too low of an angle, I really cannot feel much difference. Even less so when I'm in the midst of a sharpening slice. Suggestions on this? (Not about the neuropathy issue :), but is there something that I should do to kind of train myself to feel the edge on the stone better?).
 
You should be able to feel and hear whether you are on the bevel or at the shoulder or at the apex during the strokes after some practicing. It is still difficult to adjust quickly during a given stroke, that takes time to learn but it is already a great advantage to feel you are off. This however is different than feeling whether you are on the bevel or not at the beginning of a stroke while stationary. Often people say you should try to feel that "click". I have never been able to do that except for very flat and large bevels (think "scandi"). Steel Drake seems to have mastered that as you can see in his videos. But, you can approximate your angle and start with light and very short forth/back "teststrokes" and feel/listen to that feedback. After a while you can feel you are dead on!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top