How tough are Randall knives?

Fakeducci said:
Or legit testing by legit testers?
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Sure.

John A. Larsen said:
In 1970 I was getting ready to go back to Vietnam for my fourth tour and bought a Model 14 Stainless, from Van Sickle (?) a dealer in Texas that you could get the knife from right away with about a 25% mark up. I carried that Model 14 for the next 21 years, a tour in Vietnam, in the Philippines, Thailand, Okinawa, and the British Army Jungle warfare school in Brunei. I spent about 5 years on a Scuba Team (pre-Combat Diver) and swam it in salt water and fresh water, did 12 + Winter Warfare Exercises, at least one down to -40 degrees C/F, multiple parachute jumps, exercises in Germany and Italy and all over the USA. In 1988 I had custom knife maker Wayne Goddard, put a new handle on the knife as I never was completely satisfied with the finger grip handle it came with, carried it for three more years like that. I used that Model 14 to do whatever needed to be done, and it is still ready to go to the field. Not sure if that constitutes "Hard Use" but so what, it did it's job in the field for 21 years, so it was tough enough for me. John
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Buy one and try it... let's see you chop wood for four hours (as you stated) with a fighter; my guess is that you give out before the knife. I don't mean this as harshly as it will sound, but why do you care? You don't own one, and you seem to not like their construction. Buy a Busse and go crazy. Or stick with ESEE if it works. I love my Randall #5-6 and #16 SP1... I love my Busses and Beckers too... and most days i need a fixed blade, my Kabar 1213 Dog's Head is more than enough.

Just not so sure why all the hard words for Randall Made Knives.
 
John A. Larsen said:
In 1970 I was getting ready to go back to Vietnam for my fourth tour and bought a Model 14 Stainless, from Van Sickle (?) a dealer in Texas that you could get the knife from right away with about a 25% mark up. I carried that Model 14 for the next 21 years, a tour in Vietnam, in the Philippines, Thailand, Okinawa, and the British Army Jungle warfare school in Brunei. I spent about 5 years on a Scuba Team (pre-Combat Diver) and swam it in salt water and fresh water, did 12 + Winter Warfare Exercises, at least one down to -40 degrees C/F, multiple parachute jumps, exercises in Germany and Italy and all over the USA. In 1988 I had custom knife maker Wayne Goddard, put a new handle on the knife as I never was completely satisfied with the finger grip handle it came with, carried it for three more years like that. I used that Model 14 to do whatever needed to be done, and it is still ready to go to the field. Not sure if that constitutes "Hard Use" but so what, it did it's job in the field for 21 years, so it was tough enough for me. John
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this is the kind of use that really counts :thumbup:
 
Fakeducci said:
Anything can be broken. But lets look at the facts:

1. Mostly Stick tangs with harsh transitions which can be serious stress risers
2. Mostly leather stack handles, not always though.
3. Mediocre steel. Mostly 440B or C. This is not a tough steel by any measure.
4. Use of low sabre grind to make up for weak steel.
5. Use of weak hollow grind to make up for low sabre grind.

Lots of compromises. I like their looks and someday I want to own one. But I know they will not take severe use, like lots of heavy wood work, using a baton or extended chopping.
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Really? Somehow it doesn't surprise me to read you have not owned one...

Randall Model 12 after about 1000 chops into dead dried Maple, 0.020" edge shoulders at about 12 degrees per side:

P3216938_zpsahae3fvu.jpg


RJ Martin Raven in S30 V (a $1500 knife) with an edge twice as thick, 0.040", and about 15-17 degrees per side: Despite about twenty deep hand sharpenings to keep the metal cold and try to get out of the "bad layer" on the edge, the edge will still do micro-folds within FIVE chops into the same wood: The micro-folds are hard to capture on camera, but will grab whitish nail material when swiping the nail against the edge: The Randall has NEVER done this in thousands of chops into the same wood...: Thousands vs FIVE...:

P3216955_zpsj0eo1lgz.jpg


Into the same wood this is how a Vaughn Neeley edge that is THREE TIMES as thick as the Randall Model 12: 0.060" vs 0.020", and with the angle at around 17 degrees per side (vs 12 on the Randall) held up: This damage occurred within 20 chops into the same wood... Again 20 chops vs thousands:

P8066258_zpsv8uzfflg.jpg


And of course vs the same wood a $700 ACK within 10 chops or so: Again 10 chops vs thousands:

P3216948_zpspemoabew.jpg


This time to be fair, the ACK had a geometry that actually matched the Randall... Again we are talking here less than 10 chops vs thousands...

Since the latter two knives are the same steel as the Randall (I hear Randall occasionally put in 440C when they get a deal on a batch), I hope this underlines just how pointless and uninformed it is to say "oh it's 440: All 440 is the same..."

As far as 440 taking a second seat to anything else, perhaps a reminder of this thread would help?:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/645414-Randall-14-Vs-Busse-Sarsquatch

This is a thread where an Italian guy tested a similar thickness Busse Sasquatch in INFI in a concrete chopping test against a Randall Model 14 in 440B stainless... Not surprisingly, given the above photos, Randall's 440B held up far better than INFI despite more hits with more force applied than to the INFI knife...

Quite amusingly, some Busse fans in that thread complained that the thinner-edged Busse Sasquatch model was chosen, when that made perfect sense to get a more significant comparison with the extremely thin-edged Randall...

That in itself is quite revealing: Some would have preferred to test a typical Busse edge, which would be around 2-3 times thicker, for a comparison against a much thinner Randall edge...

Another point worth noting about Randall's hollow ground edges (which as you see above are not so fragile after all...), is that hollow ground edges have parallel sides as they near the edge, which means that as you wear these edges up, they do not grow thicker and less sharp (I call this the "reserve"), while convex or flat-ground edges immediately grow thicker and so duller and duller with each sharpening, unless a full belt-grinder reprofile is done...: This is why Randall knives remain sharp for generations of users...

While it is true other fixed blade knives are also hollow ground, like the Chris Reeve one-piece range for instance, actually very few big fixed blade knives are as thin-edged as 0.020" (0.5mm) on top of such hollow grinds: An 8.75" Chris Reeve Jereboam ranges from 0.040" to 0.058" near the point, so nearly 3 times thicker in some places... This means the cutting performance is nowhere near the thinness that Randall is confident enough to go for in their knives, owing the excellent performance of their steel... The only other "quality" big knife with as thin a hollow grind that I have seen was an old "original" Al Mar "Special Warfare", and its "lowly" Aus-6 also held up very well to chopping, but many Al Mars I have seen where thicker edged, including a smaller "Special Warfare" of more recent vintage.

I suspect the difference in Randall's steel performance could be nothing more complicated than a cleaner steel billet source... With all the pontificating about heat-treatment or steel performance, no one here ever considers the very basic issue of steel "cleanness", probably because that is a complicated issue to verify...

Gaston
 
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Fakeducci said:
Pontiac made some great cars once, then they made the Aztec.

Is there any actual videos of Randalls doing really hard work? Can they even match an Esee in toughness? Can they match a Cold Steel blade in toughness? Is there any proof anywhere in a video? Or legit testing by legit testers?
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What amuses me about "toughness" is that for a lot of people, what they actually mean is "Can this knife be used to do tasks that would be better accomplished by tools made to do those jobs"? This logically poor viewpoint is why we have so many sharpened prybars on the market today. Randalls seem like they'll do everything you would need a knife for. Folks who need a prybar, hammer, zombie-dispatch tool, stepstool, axe, or chin-up bar need not apply. Buy a Busse.
 
This is what we have come to.

Fakeducci said:
Is there any actual videos of Randalls doing really hard work? Can they even match an Esee in toughness? Can they match a Cold Steel blade in toughness? Is there any proof anywhere in a video? Or legit testing by legit testers?
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Even though Mr. Larsen's post has been quoted several times prior to your post and though you undoubtedly have read it, it is not 'legit testing' to you.

John A. Larsen said:
In 1970 I was getting ready to go back to Vietnam for my fourth tour and bought a Model 14 Stainless, from Van Sickle (?) a dealer in Texas that you could get the knife from right away with about a 25% mark up. I carried that Model 14 for the next 21 years, a tour in Vietnam, in the Philippines, Thailand, Okinawa, and the British Army Jungle warfare school in Brunei. I spent about 5 years on a Scuba Team (pre-Combat Diver) and swam it in salt water and fresh water, did 12 + Winter Warfare Exercises, at least one down to -40 degrees C/F, multiple parachute jumps, exercises in Germany and Italy and all over the USA. In 1988 I had custom knife maker Wayne Goddard, put a new handle on the knife as I never was completely satisfied with the finger grip handle it came with, carried it for three more years like that. I used that Model 14 to do whatever needed to be done, and it is still ready to go to the field. Not sure if that constitutes "Hard Use" but so what, it did it's job in the field for 21 years, so it was tough enough for me. John
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You want that man in the hockey mask wailing on a knife in a vise with a sledgehammer. If it aint batoning, it aint 'legit testing' to you.

The $64.000 question: Do you think Randall primarily catered/caters to the Mr. Larsen kind of user or the latter.
 
I've beat the crap out of my model 15... broke a defective one, they sent me a new one no questions asked. Been using that one for 6 years and never had any problems. It holds an edge well and can hack through anything I've ever swung it at. The micarta handles can chip a bit but that doesn't affect the use of the knife at all. I have a model 26 that is still brand new, I wouldn't baton it but I'm sure for hunting it'd be great, if I ever go hunting I'll probably take it and use it. Both of mine are carbon steel and they do patina/rust if you really use them.
 
Fakeducci said:
From 1970 using probably O-1 hot rolled steel forged. A little different from the use of 440b.

Empirical evidence that is 40 years old isn't very useful in an industry where many things have changed to include steel.
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Read Mr. Larsen's post again, you'll see he states "Model 14 stainless". And that 40 year old empirical evidence is still valid, and harder use than most users/collectors on here will ever contemplate.
 
Gaston444 said:
Really? Somehow it doesn't surprise me to read you have not owned one...

Gaston
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Kinda like how you never owned a Sebenza, yet you talk trash out your azz about them. I also don't believe anything about your edge angles.

So far, I have seen one video of a few minutes of mild use of a Randall. Then lots of big talk. But no real world hard use. Oh wait, that's right, there is that one paragraph from the 1970's. Wow. All I see is Randal collectors. No one actually using their knives hard. Anyone? IS there a place where I can go see where someone chopped up and battened lots of wood with a Randall. Not just a 5 minute video of one? Or the same pictures that Gaston keeps posting. Funny how the wood looks barely touched.

I know, Gaston, why don't you go and actually do a 15 minute video of you battening 8 inch thick hard wood pieces with knots. Then do 15 minutes of chopping wood with same knife if it survives the first part. I am betting not. I am pretty sure you haven't used that knife and are just talking out of you know what. Kinda like on the Sebenza forum.
 
Fakeducci, I think you just need to buy yourself a Randall and make your own video rather than criticizing other people who actually own them. If you want to beat the crap out of your knife, it's your dime.
 
Fakeducci said:
IS there a place where I can go see where someone chopped up and battened lots of wood with a Randall. Not just a 5 minute video of one? Or the same pictures that Gaston keeps posting. Funny how the wood looks barely touched.

I know, Gaston, why don't you go and actually do a 15 minute video of you battening 8 inch thick hard wood pieces with knots. Then do 15 minutes of chopping wood with same knife if it survives the first part. I am betting not.
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Well, Im battening down the hatches and leaving this thread.
 
I have had a Randall Model 14 in stainless since 1986. It has been all over the world and has been asked to punch holes in oil drums, hack into coconuts, chip ice, scrape paint, cut mooring lines and every other thing a knife could be asked of. It is now semi retired and just makes fire sticks and is used when I camp, through it all it is the first custom knife I purchased and will be the first one I given to my son after I roll....in short it is a user knife that has been proven for 31 years...no 10 minute youtube review can tell you the story of a knife...buy one and enjoy it...less talk and more real use will be a better test....just my rambling .02 cents.
 
RMK is an icon in the knife world and every knife nut should own one during their lifetime. I have owned several(14's) and they were top quality.
 
Fakeducci said:
IS there a place where I can go see where someone chopped up and battened lots of wood with a Randall.
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Not sure why anyone would want to chop wood with a knife. I use my Randall for cutting and slicing and an axe for chopping. Anyway, interesting video for those who haven't seen it. Can't imagine wanting to use a knife harder than this.

[video=youtube;3mKNbA_y4kk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mKNbA_y4kk[/video]
 
TAH said:
Not sure why anyone would want to chop wood with a knife. I use my Randall for cutting and slicing and an axe for chopping. Anyway, interesting video for those who haven't seen it.

[video=youtube;3mKNbA_y4kk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mKNbA_y4kk[/video]
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Survival fetishists usually enjoy dreaming up circumstances in which they only have access to a single tool, and expecting that tool to excel at many jobs it wasn't designed for. If it can't do certain things (that no sane person would ever ask of a knife, even under the worst circumstances) then it's a crap knife, according to some.

Me, I'm more irritated when my firearm can't be used to build a working boat.
 
Randall knives have always worked well for us. 440B is amazing when worked by professionals like Randall (among others). High QC standards and appropriate geometries are "the secret" to making great knives. 440A is no slouch either, when done well.

On an unfortunate side note, this forum is being taken over by a FEW mean spirited people. It's becoming another internet ghetto. Time for a break. The mods WILL get the problem under control sooner than later, I hope. Life is too short to yada, yada, yada.
 
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