How tough is tough enough for a knife?

[DaleW]

it would seem blades 5 inches or more might be awkward to clean small fish and small game

Needs a qualifier there-- think fillet knives-- many are that long or more. I know what you mean and agree-- cleaning a brook trout with a Becker Crewman would be a bit of a challenge You could sure get the head and tail out of the way in a hurry

 

[sodak]

That's true, and that's why there is no "one knife". Everything is a tradeoff. For cleaning fish, I would use one of a couple pocketknives that I was carrying.

 

[DaleW]

That's true, and that's why there is no "one knife". Everything is a tradeoff. For cleaning fish, I would use one of a couple pocketknives that I was carrying.

I try to work in a couple single edge razor blades in my camping gear and PSK's-- great for small fine work like cleaning a trout or a bird or slicing bark or other fibers to braid for a snare. Scapel blades and Exacto knife blades are easy to tape to other items. Split a nice straight stick at one end, add Exacto blade, wrap with line and go hunting small ani-mules. Ribbit, ribbit--- {{{{SNAG}}}} --- hey, Moe-- tastes like chicken!

 

[Bumppo]

How tough is tough enough?
Depends on the situation. I live in hotels, and had to decide which of my knives I would keep with me, I went with a small gentlemans pocketkinfe, a folding rigging knifewith a 3-4" sheepsfoot blade, and a 4-5" drop point hunter, rubber handled. If I had to choose one knife as a "survival " knife and send the others home, it would probably be the rigging knife. It has the most versatility, It is a tough knife, but the hunter is tougher, just not the best for the MOST LIKLEY scenario where a knife would be needed. In my case.
So, in choosing the "best" or "toughest" or any other criteria, many times we think of the "ultimate" for all purposes instead of the proper knife for the (emergency)situations we most likely would need the tool in.
For each of us, no matter what we think the best, toughest, greatest knife in the world is, we know in an emergency it is your edc.
This thread really got me thinking. How tough is my edc?

 

[skammer]

Despite what some believe there is a spectrum of quality in all blades.

Even the low end like a made in china SAK clone vs the real deal.

The same applies on the top size end. Get what you can afford, do research nothing less. It very well could come down to your EDC so go quality. Its not always what you can get away with 99% of the time during normal operating conditions but what you can accomplish in that atypical 1% when your life depends on it.

In the end it comes down to whether your life value is based on saving a buck buying a tool you can count on.

Skam

 

[the possum]

How tough is tough enough?

I see a few classes of knives:
...*Monster choppers. Let's say 7" and up.

Have not read the rest of the thread yet, but right off the bat, if you consider a seven inch blade as a "monster chopper", your requirements for toughness will naturally be a hell of a lot less than they would be with much longer blades.

 

[DaleW]

Despite what some believe there is a spectrum of quality in all blades.

Even the low end like a made in china SAK clone vs the real deal.

The same applies on the top size end. Get what you can afford, do research nothing less. It very well could come down to your EDC so go quality. Its not always what you can get away with 99% of the time during normal operating conditions but what you can accomplish in that atypical 1% when your life depends on it.

In the end it comes down to whether your life value is based on saving a buck buying a tool you can count on.

Skam

They had a program on the other night with Aron Ralston who was trapped in a slot canyon when a boulder rolled onto his arm and trapped him there. He had broken the rules and no one knew that he was hiking, let alone where he was. And he was carrying a pitiful copy of a Leatherman. He tried to chip away at the boulder for a couple days-- as much to stay warm as anything. He did have a little water with him, but no spare clothing. I think he was ther about 5 days when he finally decided to amputate his trapped forearm and all he had was that crappy blade, much damaged by the chipping attempts. He finally broke the ulna and radius and cut through the rest his arm to free himself. I doubt there is any knife that you would commonly carry that might chip away rock effectively, but any quality knife would have done a better job than that thing he trusted his life to. Talk about a case for one-handed opening!

There are some surprises. I was watching the videos at knifetests.com and the lowly Cold Steel Bushman took punishment that caused a high-tech alloy chopper to break and fail. Of course the real lesson there is using steel appropriate to the job-- much like our discussions here of the Kershaw Outcast using D2 steel.

In the case above, any sharp knife would have done the deed, although he may have broken them trying to chip the rock. I carry single-edge razor blades in my PSK and they would have done the job well. He broke the bones of his lower arm, although I don't know why he couldn't have dissected his elbow. He is better off to have that lower stump to work with his prothesis. An SAK with a saw blade may have taken care of the bones, or maybe even a wire saw with a weight hung from one end for one-handed use. All armchair quarterbacking to be sure. He said the hardest part was cutting the nerve-- fire all the way to his neck he said. A really sharp blade would have at least made that agony shorter. I've noticed when I really cut myself bad with a sharp tool, that it really doesn't hurt much. I assume that is in part because the sharp edge doesn't cause as much trauma-- clean and quick rather than tearing and crushing.

Now that I have ruined your most recent meal.....

 

[Thomas Linton]

. . .[H]e finally decided to amputate his trapped forearm and all he had was that crappy blade, much damaged by the chipping attempts. He finally broke the ulna and radius and cut through the rest his arm to free himself. . . . I carry single-edge razor blades in my PSK and they would have done the job well. He broke the bones of his lower arm, although I don't know why he couldn't have dissected his elbow. He is better off to have that lower stump to work with his prothesis. An SAK with a saw blade may have taken care of the bones, or maybe even a wire saw with a weight hung from one end for one-handed use. All armchair quarterbacking to be sure. He said the hardest part was cutting the nerve-- fire all the way to his neck he said. A really sharp blade would have at least made that agony shorter. I've noticed when I really cut myself bad with a sharp tool, that it really doesn't hurt much. I assume that is in part because the sharp edge doesn't cause as much trauma-- clean and quick rather than tearing and crushing.

Now that I have ruined your most recent meal.....

Truly. :barf:

 

[Walt-FL]

I saw that too. After amputating his arm he still had to descend and walk several miles before someone finally found him.

As for toughest or best knife, there is no such thing in my opinion. It's all job related.
I try to go for the most versatile thing, knowing I lose in extremes. If the blade is too small, 5" or less, you can forget about killing boar if there is need to. On the other hand, I rather carry a separate axe than a 1 1/2 lbs. monster chopper. The chopper is heavy and doesn't do a good job on cutting small things, dressing meat, fish, etc. Something in the 6-7" field in decent production quality.

 

[magneto]

5" would work great. I just measured a steak knife which is 4 1/4". The same size that I used to scale and clean thousands of fish. Panfish, crappie, bass, hybrids and strippers. I only used one knife and it was never to big. And I would never dig or pry with a knife. Multiply that by ten if I am using that knife to survive.

 

[Kyp Degal]

I think pit man got it dead-on, at least for me. 3/16" thick, 4 3/4" - 5" blade, 5160. What else really need be said?

 

[DaleW]

I think pit man got it dead-on, at least for me. 3/16" thick, 4 3/4" - 5" blade, 5160. What else really need be said?

That's where I ended up: Entrek Javalina, 4.25" x 3/16" 440C full tang blade with a straight spine. Very hearty without hauling half the steel mill with you.

From what I have gathered here, a small brace of tools is the preference. A small SAK or multi-tool, sheath knife as you described, with range extended with a small hatchet, folding saw or machete. Insert lockblade folding knife or mora as desired.

My "pallette" of hiking cutting tools so far:

SAK Classic
Leatherman Micra
Bucklite Mini-tool
SAK Camper
SAK Trekker
Mora Clipper
Entrek Javalina
Firestone Pocket Axe

Im looking to add:

Stainless mora
Ontario 12" machete with orange handle
Folding saw

 

[David E]

And I would never dig or pry with a knife. Multiply that by ten if I am using that knife to survive.

I find comments like this interesting.....the scenario is a survival situation, yet the user knows in advance he would "never dig or pry with a knife"

It's a survival situation because things already went wrong! As such, you may very well have to use your knife in ways you previously swore you'd never do......like dig and pry!

Bill Siegle related the story of having to use a knife to pull his weight on (prying action) to get out of a bad situation.

Another posted of having to get out of an area by using the knife as a piton, pulling his bodyweight up and finally out.

I like Bill's answer to the original question of "how tough does a knife need to be" as he put REAL values on the requirements. (being able to support bodyweight) As opposed to the vague "as tough as it needs to be to get you home" blather, as it assigns no real value to any element of "toughness." I suppose a Ginsu might be "tough enough" if you didn't require much of it. That misses the point of the question, tho.

 

[Kyp Degal]

The way I see it, if I have to pry, I will. The above named knife can handle prying, even heavy prying, easily. If I have to dig, though, I'll cut a digging stick, when at all possible, or use some other implement, because nothing will dull a blade faster than digging, and that blade's sharpness could very well mean the difference between life and death.

Dale, I agree, a good brace of tools is definitely the way to go. I EDC three pocket knives, all with their different uses. When I go into the woods for any length of time, I take a machete along as well. And of course, I'll have my fixed blade.

 

[magneto]

Murphy's Law will still apply in a survival situation. What's to say that knife that was made to pry won't fail? That's just the way I see it.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Murphy's Law will still apply in a survival situation. What's to say that knife that was made to pry won't fail? That's just the way I see it.

While Murphy was a raving optimist (Things that "can't" go wrong do go wrong.), a knife built with severe use in mind is less likely to fail when abused than a knife not built with severe use in mind.

 

[RescueRiley]

to me this is sort of like trying to figure out how tough a group of commandos is (that being said I don't know anything about commandos) but in a group like that there are a certain #of people with specialized skill sets grouped together to accompish given tasks....Knives are the same, From reading this forum it seems like nobody is heading out there with just 1 blade (i know I don't) so knife has it's purpose if it's cutting/carving/light bushcraft/dressing game, probably a mora would suffice for saeing down saplings to make a shelter or a trap or spear etc probably a good mutitool saw will make fairly light work of that as well as being able to piggy back the lighter tasks of the mora, obviously an axe or larger blad for chopping would be good, I live in an urban environment so my edc consists of a lock back folder a sak and a FAK,
when ever I'm heading out of the city I typically bring a uniform set of stuff my FAK, PSK A small sheath knife a sak and a small axe or a larger blade...the sheath knife goes on the belt the sak either piggybacks it or goes in my pocket the chopper goes in the back pack (if it's a day hike my chopper would be a heavier knife) if I'm planning on stayin longer or if it is unfamiliar territory I'll bring a small axe it's not that much weight....And i could use the extra excercise to burn off all the iccream I eat when I'm at home.....Sorry for rambling.

 

[Shotgun]

Picture the ultimate knife and research knives(same type) until your eyes bleed. Then you either find a winner or start over with another class of knives. Of course sometimes you think you have a winner and buy a knife. Then, you realize it just aint gonna do it for you. I thought I needed a 6-7 1/2 inch chopper only to find I can't operate one of those well after I bought it, but I sure can use a hatchet. So now I'm looking at a Howling Rat and think it's gonna work out for me real good teamed up with said hatchet. Then again I won't know until I get one into my hands. I AM confident in the 3.5-4.5 inch knife is gonna work. Just not sure if 3/16 is what I need or more like 1/8. But hey another excuse to buy a knife right?

 

[Kyp Degal]

Shotgun, I pretty tried the same thing until I just got fed up and designed my own, and had it made for much less than I would have spent trying out all the different almost-the-one knives I had eyed. I just did my research, figured out pretty much what I wanted, drew it up, and sent it off to Justin Gingrich. I can honestly say that I may never need to buy another fixed blade knife. I'm sure this won't actually stop me from buying them, of course, I wouldn't hardly be fit to post on the forums if it did, but nevertheless, that is the fact of the matter.

As far as thickness, it really depends on what you're going to be doing with it. I would definitely want 3/16" if I expected to ever encounter any sort of survival situation, but 1/8" may well serve better for the woodworking chores in familiar woods. Personally, just a little rule of thumb for me, I prefer 1/4" in my 7"+ blades, 3/16" in my 4-6" blades and 1/8" below 4".

 

[DaleW]

I find comments like this interesting.....the scenario is a survival situation, yet the user knows in advance he would "never dig or pry with a knife"

It's a survival situation because things already went wrong! As such, you may very well have to use your knife in ways you previously swore you'd never do......like dig and pry!

Bill Siegle related the story of having to use a knife to pull his weight on (prying action) to get out of a bad situation.

Another posted of having to get out of an area by using the knife as a piton, pulling his bodyweight up and finally out..

You are both answering my question really. One guy says he won't dig or pry with a knife to preserve the tool for other tasks, you say you may want to be prepared for that. That's all good info.

Using a knife for a piton is about as far as I could ask a cutting tool to go. A good batoning was about what I had in mind. Your point is good too-- you never know what kind of extreme situation you may find yourself in.

"Momma always said, 'survival is like a box of chocolates-- you never know what you will find.'" --- Forrest "Wildman" Gump