How's the detent on your 0560?

[dadams]

If your having a hard time using the thumb stud/stop, try using it in your left hand.

 

[RevDevil]

I see that you have chosen to lead by example! Further back in the thread, many were referring to it as a thumb stud, and commenting on how it was hard to open using it. Others adjusted it to make it easier to open with the thumb stud. I would appreciate it if you kept your childish moderator comments either to yourself, or take them to W&C where you can impress that crowd.

Relax yourself tough guy. It was a legitimate question. You made a very matter-of-fact type statement, and I was inquiring. If you'd rather your opinion not be challenged or questioned, leave room for error in your statements. No one is trying to impress anyone here, much less you or any crowd. If you have a problem with me, take it to email or feel free to start a thread in Tech Support.

The 055X has a similar protrusion to the 056X, yet the 055X has no flipper to open the blade.

 

[McVeyMac]

Relax yourself tough guy. It was a legitimate question. You made a very matter-of-fact type statement, and I was inquiring. If you'd rather your opinion not be challenged or questioned, leave room for error in your statements. No one is trying to impress anyone here, much less you or any crowd. If you have a problem with me, take it to email or feel free to start a thread in Tech Support.

The 055X has a similar protrusion to the 056X, yet the 055X has no flipper to open the blade.

If I misinterpreted your post, I apologize. It is not the protrusion that is problematic, but the physics to overcome the detent and get the blade moving. Is the stud on the 055X on the exact same part of the blade as it is on the 056X, relative to the axis of the pivot? I do not own an example of the 055X, so I cannot make this comparison. Does the thumb stud of the 055X also serve as a blade stop?

 

[RevDevil]

Yep, the 0551 I have utilizes the stud as a stop device. It's a unique design on that knife in particular. Almost gives the impression that material is missing, even though it isn't (on the handle at near the spine of the blade at the point closest to the pivot). Some do have incredible detent power, on others it is manageable with a focused push up and out. Based on what I've read over the last year, I'm convinced that it is a mixed bag across the board.

 

[McVeyMac]

Yep, the 0551 I have utilizes the stud as a stop device. It's a unique design on that knife in particular. Almost gives the impression that material is missing, even though it isn't (on the handle at near the spine of the blade at the point closest to the pivot). Some do have incredible detent power, on others it is manageable with a focused push up and out. Based on what I've read over the last year, I'm convinced that it is a mixed bag across the board.

I guess all that I can say is that I am glad I have an 0561 and a flipper. Else I would have no way to open it one handed, given my example.

 

[Jay S.]

My current 0561 will not open by shaking it and I can use the thumb stud. My last 0561 would not open while shaking it and it was absolutely impossible to open by using the thumb stud. Both flip like they are autos.

 

[McVeyMac]

If the thumb stud on the 05XX knives are identicle in placement, physics and overall design between the 055X and the 056X, then all I can say is thank goodness I do not own a 055X knife. If I did, this knife would be useless to me, and it would be going back to ZT. I can accept that the design is intended to be a blade stop only on the 056X because there is a flipper to deploy the knife. But on my example, the blade stop absolutely sucks as a thumb stud.

I have purchased all of my ZT knives through online distributors. I will never purchase another ZT knife unless I can actually handle the knife beforehand. I am really dissapointed in this design and in ZT. I doubt that I will ever get excited enough about a ZT knife to ever purchase another. Does the XM-24 have the same issue?

 

[ToddM]

I think the biggest issue is the variation in detent holding power. Some of that might be lock bar tension, or how far the detent ball engages the detent hole. The vast majority of my knives the detent ball does not engage the whole fully, not even close, and it doesn't necessarily have to for blade security. Plus the bigger/heavier the blade the less room there is for a weak detent.

Another part of the issue is the flipper and thumb stud have very different leverages, so an acceptable detent for blade deployment for one might not be for the other. I've also noticed that the knives I have that use the thumb stud for a blade stop tend to require a more pressure and a different motion to open (more pushing strait forward, than up and out) than a traditional thumb stud placement. Some knives like the strider use a blade hole even though it can be opened with the "blade stop". It follows that if you have less leverage on the thumb stud because it's closer to the pivot, it's harder to overcome the detent. It would be interesting to see if any makers have really put the effort in to flipper/stud placement to try and provide equal leverages or if it's even possible without a drastic design change.

While I don't shy away from knives that use the thumb stud for a blade stop, I find those that don't are easier to open consistently and thinking back on it almost every knife I've had to tweak the detent holding power on, has been of that design.

 

[McVeyMac]

I think the biggest issue is the variation in detent holding power. Some of that might be lock bar tension, or how far the detent ball engages the detent hole. The vast majority of my knives the detent ball does not engage the whole fully, not even close, and it doesn't necessarily have to for blade security. Plus the bigger/heavier the blade the less room there is for a weak detent.

Another part of the issue is the flipper and thumb stud have very different leverages, so an acceptable detent for blade deployment for one might not be for the other. I've also noticed that the knives I have that use the thumb stud for a blade stop tend to require a more pressure and a different motion to open (more pushing strait forward, than up and out) than a traditional thumb stud placement. Some knives like the strider use a blade hole even though it can be opened with the "blade stop". It follows that if you have less leverage on the thumb stud because it's closer to the pivot, it's harder to overcome the detent. It would be interesting to see if any makers have really put the effort in to flipper/stud placement to try and provide equal leverages or if it's even possible without a drastic design change.

While I don't shy away from knives that use the thumb stud for a blade stop, I find those that don't are easier to open consistently and thinking back on it almost every knife I've had to tweak the detent holding power on, has been of that design.

Todd, this is a well thought out and well articulated argument. On the MT Socom Elite, the thumb stud/blade lock is attached in a portion of the blade that is raised above the main blade line to accommodate providing this additional leverage that you referred to. The frame around the pivot is also widened out to accommodate the raised stop. With this knife, I can open it completely with the thumb stud/blade stop with absolutely no wrist flick whatsoever. Note: there is no spring loaded detent ball bearing on the liner lock that I am aware of, and in fact it is a liner lock and not a frame lock. So this might be an apples to oranges comparison in this regard. But it does possess a combination thumb stud/blade lock as a dedicated one handed opening mechanism.

First, I do not own a 055X knife, I own a 0561. In fact, I was not aware that the 055X did not have a flipper until RevDevil pointed this out to me. This is why I began questioning the placement of the thumb stud/blade stop relative to the axis of rotation on the 055X to determine if it had more leverage than the 056X placement. In looking at a lot of pictures of the two knives, this does not appear to be the case. They appear to have similar leverage by looking at photos, and It might be that the 056X has a little bit more leverage due to the larger size of the blade.

I will keep and continue to carry my 0561. My example has excellent fit and finish with which I am well pleased, the ELMAX does not appear to be scorched and edge retention is completely adequate for my usage. Funny, I cannot open my SMF at all with the blade stop. I always opened it with the hole, and never question at all if the blade stop should be considered a thumb stud. I look at my 0561 the same way. Open with flipper, protrusion from each side of the blade is a blade stop. And for me, functionally this is true. Regardless of what ZT had in mind with the design.

I have also found, and have stated in this thread, that the force required to open my 0561 by the thumb stud is exactly as you described, and different from thumb stud only designs (edit: with the exception of Socom Elite already noted. This works just like a dedicated thumb stud with respect to force and motion). I have also found that if not performed exactly correctly, my thumb can end up on the edge. I have never cut myself, yet, but another in this thread has pointed out this same issue. There currently appears to be a similar discussion going on with the purchaser of a new 0566. All I can do is comment that my 0561 was not a cheap knife, and I really did expect more from ZT. I can accept that it was designed to be a blade stop only with dedicated flipper opening. The knife works flawlessly for me in this mode. I do wish the OP well with his 0560, and I hope it works to his satisfaction. But as far as I am concerned, I am finished with ZT folders. That is unless I can handle it first. The amount of variance being communicated here on how these knives work tells me that they have no control over it. For the price that I paid, I expect better QC. I think it is a shame too, I really wanted a quality high end folder option beyond Kershaw but under Hinderer, Strider and CRK. In my opinion, ZT is not it.

 

[scotsmanspride]

The detent on my 0561 sn 7662 is horrible. This was my first flipper and was told that it needed a little time to "break in." My knife is lightning fast on deployment however even the smallest shake can cause the blade to come out. The detent drops approx 1/3 of the way into the hole. Upon further inspection the face of my detent is flat and not sure if it is causing part of the issue. Not sure if this was caused when it was originally pressed in. This thing has come open 3 times in my pocket, the last of which cut a $70 pair of shorts wide open and was the last straw. The only problem is that my blade has been acid/stonewashed and so far have been told this voided my warranty. Even though all the bearing/contact surfaces were completely coated and protected. Spoke with kershaws CS/ warranty today and they ultimately told me to send it in. I have heard in the past that their CS is too notch. And while understanding warranties and how some people mod things in a very chop shop sorta way I hope that they come through for me even if it takes a little cash as I really do enjoy this knife. But no matter how much I enjoy it I cannot carry something that is that dangerous anymore and refuse to punt it off to someone else who could be hurt.

 

[Kreyzhorse]

I bought a 561 from an online retailer a few weeks ago the the detent was so weak I considered the knife dangerous. A slight shake and it was opening and I had zero doubt that at some point it would open in my pocket. After posting a similar thread to this one, I returned the knife.

A couple of days later, I found one locally that was perfect. You can't shake the blade free but it opens very smooth and takes just a tiny amount of force to over come the detent. To me, it's the perfect blend of security and ease of opening. ZT got this one right. My first one, not so much. Overall the 561 is a great knife so don't give up on it. Either return it or send it back to have it fixed.

 

[Jake_Lucas]

I'll respond for posterity.


My 0561 has a very strong detent that is so near perfect it's worth talking about. That's assuming you're using the flipper. Using the thumb stud to overcome the detent is uncomfortable. Flipping action is therefore excellent. My knife is lubed, tuned, and has no play in any direction but swings freely with lock disengaged.

Jake

 

[A Justice]

Relax yourself tough guy. It was a legitimate question. You made a very matter-of-fact type statement, and I was inquiring. If you'd rather your opinion not be challenged or questioned, leave room for error in your statements. No one is trying to impress anyone here, much less you or any crowd. If you have a problem with me, take it to email or feel free to start a thread in Tech Support.

The 055X has a similar protrusion to the 056X, yet the 055X has no flipper to open the blade.

Rev, I posted some pictures of my 0560 and 0561 on another site's forum, and spoke a little about how I had gotten an 0561 with a perfect detent, after handling so many and owning a few that were very strong. I got about half a dozen replies stating that the 0561 doesn't have thumbstuds, and that they're bladestops... I didn't agree with that, brought up how the 0550 has thumbstuds but no flipper, I quoted material from the Hinerer website that says that the thumbstuds are blade stops as well (since the 0560 was based on the Hinderer I thought that the status quo should yield to his design), and linked to websites where you could buy the same parts, and they were listed as thumbstuds.....

Well, several more people chimed in saying that they were blade stops and not thumbstuds, and eventually someone quoted ZT's marketing guy making a statement that said something along the lines of "I wish we would have made an internal stop pin on the 0560 because everyone complains when the detent won't let them use the blade stops as thumbstuds. Some examples have a optimized detent, and that's great for the people that get those knives, but it's extremely hard to get the detents just right so they work well with the flipper and with the thumbstuds". It was passed off as canon that the ZT 0560 does not have thumbstuds.... which I still don't agree with (the ZT guy's statement didn't definitively say that no one is allowed to use them as thumbstuds, and it seemed more like they were tired of answering questions about why the 0560's detent often didn't allow people to use the thumbstuds), but it really seemed like a bunch of useless argument of semantics to me so I moved on and didn't bother trying to convince anybody of anything.

There is a large group that are convinced that those protrusions are not thumbstuds, and will vehemently oppose anyone that says they are - which I don't know why anybody cares, but with so many people holding that notion, it's sure to be brought up again (in fact since Blade Forums is so large, I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up here before). I'm going to call them thumbstuds though, and just apologize to anybody I offend for my ignorance, because on my 0561 the thumbstuds work even better than the flipper, and just as well as any other knife with thumbstuds on the planet.

 

[scotsmanspride]

My upcoming solution for a weak detent should it not get warrantied...
Stonewashed and oxidized titanium
Bearing surfaces should not have had any changes that should void a detent warranty....
The super shiny part on the center of the detent is all flattened. Not sure if other knives have this. again i can only suspect it was caused by being pressed into place....?