hrm, sharpening question..buck specific

Rsmith_77

Rsmith_77

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Jun 4, 2010
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SO i am here doing a little knife maintenance and i noticed something.
no matter what I do, i just cannot get my buck 309 as sharp as my case cv texas jack

is it because the 309 is a saber grind? I dont think so
is it because stainless just doesnt get as sharp as case CV? Again, i dont think so...but maybe

i've seen folks get their bucks pretty scary sharp...i just cannot seem to do it
(for the record, i dont have any fancy sharpening system, just some stones and some homemade strops).

Now as I said i am pretty sure its me, Sitflyer sent me a 422 bucklight with a 442 blade switched in and its not as sharp as my texas jack, but its a darn sight sharper than my 309...

so, whats the trick, am i missing something? Or is my expectations too high?

any advice is appreciated
 
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I have found that grind can affect performance cutting wood, so if you're judging sharpened by whittling, there may some tricks to get more from the hollower saber grind.

I suspect it's the harder 420hc though, demanding more from you. I can't sharpen well by hand so take this as blind leading the blind.

1) Consider getting a basic Lansky guided rod system for around $30. They take a lot of variables out and produce consistent results.

2) when sharpening by hand, use an angle gauge to frequently test you angle. A small piece of paper folded in half at a corner like an airplane and then folded again, will give you a cheap guide at the 22.5 degree mark. Usin a guide like this has helped me make progress in controlling my angle when free handing but the Lansky is still better.

3) Either way, be sure to work each side to a burr before moving to the other side. I've found that harder steels take more pressure and more work when they are dull. I spend more time on the course stone and stay on the course stone till I've put a burr on each side.

Hopefully some of the better sharpeners will weigh in. Listen to them, not me.
 
I second the motion on the Lansky. And the rest sounds good to me. The strop is very important.
 
Welxome, Technique and the type of stones matter a lot. This is common espically if one knife has a good bevel already set. Also, because of the narrow blades on the model you reference give me some challange. Try using a black felt marker and carefully mark a line on the blades bevel and with a magnifier to make sure your hitting the apex as one could have a different angle which accomodates your style better. Then keep checking to make sure your hitting the angle during your strokes. DM
 
I sharpen everything by hand with either stones or using a leather hone. No lansky or guides here. Are you sharpenin the Buck on one side until you get a burr and then switching to the other side? Are you raising the spine too high on the Buck? Remember the blade on th Texas Jack is at a different angle. The texas jack is a flat grind where as the Buck is hollow grind. What type of shapening stone are you using? While I do not have a newer 309 I do have some other newer Bucks. I do regularly carry a case cv stockman. Here is something I noticed from experience when sharpening the Buck compared to the Case. For sometime I got aggravated because I couldnt get my newer Bucks as sharp as my older Bucks and my Cases. I honestly almost walked away from Buck thinking it was the knife. One day while playing around I realized that "I" needed to adjust the spine angle just a little while shapening. Also I do believe the Cv is somewhat softer imho. But all of this is just my opinion.. I'd say just keep practising on it. If things get real bad use some sandpaper and just convex the edge and things will be good to go.
 
Well looks like I repeated alot of what David Martin said. Geuss I'm just a slow typer.:D
 
kyhunt said:
Also I do believe the Cv is somewhat softer imho. But all of this is just my opinion.. I'd say just keep practising on it. If things get real bad use some sandpaper and just convex the edge and things will be good to go.
Click to expand...

With all the normal caveats of I heard this on the internet, am only repeating it, it could be wrong and I could be misremembering, but I seem to recall hearing that Case CV is hardened around 56rc while Buck's 420HC is around 58rc.

Quasi-convexing the edge (rounding the shoulder of the bevel) using sandpaper is the trick that got my Bucks going in wood.
 
It's all about angle. If your not able to get your knife sharp, its because your angle is wrong. Use Dave's idea, with the black marker. If when you complete your stroke across the stone, your not hitting the edge of the blade, adjust your angle. It will be obvious...
 
IME, the edges of the buck slipjoint knives are thicker than case's and require more effort. The cv steel is a little softer, but not enough that it should make a difference in sharpening time. The buck steel might be a little more difficult to remove the burr for some reason.

How are you testing sharpness? Knowing this would probably be as helpful to us as anything else.
 
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me2 said:
IME, the edges of the buck slipjoint knives are thicker than case's and require more effort. The cv steel is a little harder, but not enough that it should make a difference in sharpening time. The buck steel might be a little more difficult to remove the burr for some reason.

How are you testing sharpness? Knowing this would probably be as helpful to us as anything else.
Click to expand...

I disagree with most of this comment. Harder steel, might be a factor but the thicker edges I cant get on board with. Sharpening your knife weather it's a Case, a Buck or fill in the blank, it take technique, practice and patience. For harder steel technique and patience will get the job done. If its bothering you that much, spend $10 and send it in to Buck and let them clean and sharpen it...
 
Right you are. The 420hc buck uses is harder, not the other way around. The buck slipjoint I had was thicker behind the edge than the Case models Ive looked at, which was a couple when I was contemplating replacing my trapper.
 
Me2, I do agree with you with respect to burrs. I find that carbon steel is very easy to deal in terms of burrs. 420HC isn't bad though, not compared to other forms of stainless. The soft INOX used on Victorinox knives and the (softer?) stainless on my Case fixed blade reburr very easily compared to the 420HC. Still, I do have to pay more attention to stainless during honing.
 
me2 said:
How are you testing sharpness? Knowing this would probably be as helpful to us as anything else.
Click to expand...

i am a little old school. cleanly cut paper and arm hair shaving is my goal
hope that helps a little
 
rsmith, have you been sharpening to the point of creating a burr?

When I move from carbon to 420HC, learning to spend more time on the course stone was the big change.

Keep at it.
 
Rsmith_77 said:
i am a little old school. cleanly cut paper and arm hair shaving is my goal
hope that helps a little
Click to expand...

Thats a great help. With both those sharpness tests, only the sharpness of the very edge matters. Arm hair and paper don't bind on the edge like thick cardboard or something, so the sharpening angle and the thickness of the blade and the type of grind can almost be ignored. I've heard of people getting hair whittling edges on blades sharpened at 27 degrees per side, which is approaching cold chisel and splitting wedge geometry, at least at the very edge. So now we know it's not the thickness of the blade just behind the edge bevel, nor the difference in grind between Case and Buck. It sounds like there must be some sort of burr clinging to the edge, assuming you're forming one. If not, then you probably just need some more time on the stones, followed by a dedicated deburring step, followed by some alternating honing at just a little above the original sharpening angle.

It's sorta meaningless to give you angles if you're doing things free hand, so let's use distance of the spine above the stone. I'll use my trapper knife as an example. You'll have to work out the height of the spine of your blades above the stone, since they are likely different sizes. I sharpen my trapper clip point blade at a very shallow angle, and raise the spine about 1/16" above the surface of the stone. I alternate 20 or so strokes per side until I feel a burr. 20 strokes on the right, feel for burr on the left (opposite the side that just touched the stone). Then 20 strokes on the left, feel for burr on the right. After I get a burr after each set of 20, I raise the angle quite a bit, maybe 1/4" between the spine and the stone, or close to 45 degrees on each side. This is one stroke per side to cut off the burr, done VERY LIGHTLY, on a clean stone, freshly flushed with water or oil, or freshly cleaned if you don't use liquid. If the burr can still be felt, I'll do one more pass on each side. The goal is to just cut off the burr, but not to make any bevel on the cutting edge. Following this, I'll raise the spine maybe 3/32" off the stone and alternate passes, one per side, until the edge is sharp, which typically takes maybe 10 strokes per side, maybe more depending on steel and stone choice. This method forms a very small micro bevel. If you don't want that, just go back to the original 1/16" above the stone. I can't hold that steady anyway, so I use the microbevel. Then check your edge. You can refine the edge by doing the alternating passes on finer and finer stones, but you may need to do the occasional deburring step if you feel, hear, or see a burr come up. After a couple of sharpenings, you'll be able to feel one if it forms. I do not use hand strops to remove the burr. IME, it just scrapes the surface of the leather and give you a pile of strop compound and leather fuzz on your edge.
 
Typically I'll use my 220/1000 grit King combo water stone followed by my Sharpmaker. Lately I've been using the 220/1000 followed by a 4000 then a 0.3 um lapping/honing film. For my EDC knives the pase couple weeks, I've been stopping on the 1000 side of the combo stone.
 
Even when the edge on my buck 303/301 was push cutting paper, shaving and all that, i wasn't satisfied with it, the edge was too thick for a small knife in my mind, and compared to the case thinner grinds they were far from slicing 'beasts'...so i had both of 'em re profiled to an almost zero edge, basically the shoulders were removed and the grind was thinned a bit, bringing the hollow grind to a flat one. Then i was happy.
 
I test the sharp edge by laying the edge on my finger nail and with no pressure try to move the knife side to side. This comes in handy when trying to figure a spot on the edge that still needs work.
 
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