Hydraulic Forge Presses In Canada? Princess Auto 50 Ton w/ homemade dies?

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mgysgthath

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Dec 15, 2009
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I was wondering if any fellow canucks have found a good place for a hydraulic forging press?

I asked Mr Robertson from artistblacksmith.com if he sells or knows of anyone (he sells pneumatic hammers for $4400 FYI).. and he suggested a Princess Auto 50 ton and making my own dies.

http://www.princessauto.com/worksho...460068-50-ton-industrial-hydraulic-shop-press

"Ram speed: 32" per min. (no load), 8" per min. at working pressure
2 HP, 3,450 RPM, 208/230V continuous duty motor"

I'm not sure if that is really suited to forge welding/drawing out (not in any particular hurry though, if its fast ENOUGH..) because of the large working area. Pretty sure I read somewhere else that a wide area like that makes it susceptible to slanting because the pressure has more surface area to distribute over.

That being said, the price isn't bad.. and making dies would be fairly easy.
 
I think the ram speed is too slow and the frame too flimsy.
Once you start replacing all things to upgrade, you have made a whole new press.

There are lots of people equipped to make them for you, but
I don't know of anyone making and selling forging presses in Canada, the market is just too small.

At that 2500 + tax, $2850 I think you can build the one you need for that or less.

Get the Princess auto catalogue, you can source all the hydraulic parts there

Start with the Baston book & the gallery of presses on Don Foggs site
Or just search for the press build here that Eric Fleming did- he did a great WIP and drawing set even if you don't use the auto setup.

Even if you can't weld, you can clamp and screw it all together, then get it pro welded.



Canada is 5,500 km or 3,300 miles from coast to coast, can you put a more specific location in your profile ?
There may be a few suggestions on who can do this, but it makes NO sense to ship it half way across the world.
 
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While we have a hydraulic press thread open:


Does anyone use 2 smaller cylinders side by side instead of one cylinder.


Smaller cylinders are as cheap, or cheaper than one large cylinder.

It should be easier to keep it running straignt

- less worry about side load hanging up the carriage or bending the ram.
 
Apologies, I thought I had been more specific on the location. SE Ontario. I can weld, but it's all the hydraulic stuff I know next to nothing about. I already have a tiny press built with just a 20 ton pneumatic assisted jack I can put in there, but I haven't tried it yet. I need to get a new bottom plate for my forge, as the flux basically eats through the ceramic, and in a hurry -- before I try more damascus. I have the CAD drawings and all the info I could gather for Eric's build, which is an awesome press btw.. I don't need the automatic features at all, just a good working press.
 
mgysgthath said:
Apologies, I thought I had been more specific on the location. SE Ontario. I can weld, but it's all the hydraulic stuff I know next to nothing about. I already have a tiny press built with just a 20 ton pneumatic assisted jack I can put in there, but I haven't tried it yet. I need to get a new bottom plate for my forge, as the flux basically eats through the ceramic, and in a hurry -- before I try more damascus. I have the CAD drawings and all the info I could gather for Eric's build, which is an awesome press btw.. I don't need the automatic features at all, just a good working press.
Click to expand...


You can just pull the specs from his build and buy the components in PA

Start with cylinder size, that determines the pump size needed, that determines the motor HP and RPM

It's all simple grade 5 math, volume of a cylinder, add, subtract, multiply , divide.
There are online calculators to do it too.

The specs I've seen recommended are 1 or 2" per second ram speed

Draw up your plan from Eric's build.
You will have to substitute a lever control valve for his solenoid valves.
Then go through the pa catalogue and pull part #'s with the same specs

BE sure you have a relief valve.
I believe that there is a combo relief valve and throttling valve.


The workers in the hydraulics section are very helpful
Show them your plan and let them help.
 
That's a good idea, thank you. I am pretty cash poor at the moment, car troubles and xmas, but that will help a lot when I go to do it. Thanks.
 
Count,
Dual cylinders will require twice the flow rate from the pump. A single larger cylinder and matching pump is a far better way to go. There are other considerations,but that is the big one. A good press can be built by a competent welder with a good shop at home for $1000. An alternative is to convert a used 20 ton log splitter. They can often be found for $300-400.
 
bladsmth said:
Count,
Dual cylinders will require twice the flow rate from the pump. A single larger cylinder and matching pump is a far better way to go. There are other considerations,but that is the big one. A good press can be built by a competent welder with a good shop at home for $1000. An alternative is to convert a used 20 ton log splitter. They can often be found for $300-400.
Click to expand...


Stacy

Maybe I'm making a wrong assumption

I'm assuming that 2 smaller cylinder side by side, attached in parallel is equivalent to a larger cylinder, assuming a comparable total cylinder area.

Maybe that is a bad assumption ?

The parallel hookup will automatically balance the hydraulic load.


I'm not trying to get away with a smaller pump, just avoid damaging the cylinder ram with off centre loads.

Now that I look at the calculations, the cylinders have to stay fairly large & two cylinders may cost more than just one larger one
I'm guessing why this is not more popular, but I have seen it done.

For instance.

using 2000 psi (which is pretty low)
This is a direct reading to tonnage it makes the math simple


6 inch cylinder
area
3.14 x3x3
28.26 square inches

5 inch cylinder
area
19.625

4.5 inch cylinder
15.89

4 inch cylinder
area
12.56

3.5inch cylinder
9.6

3 inch inch cylinder
7.07

Two 3.5” cylinders is almost equivalent to one 5 inch cylinder.
3.5 cylinder
2x 9.6 =19.2

5 inch cylinder
19.625

At 2,000 psi 19 tons
At 2,500 psi 24 tons

The pricing of 2 smaller cylinder works out to the same as 1 larger one and makes more sense to me for keeping the press forces balanced and straight.
I have seen some makers on the forums who have to replace cylinders after bending the ram & want to avoid that in my design.

Does anyone know of someone using a press with dual cylinders?
I have only ever found Randy McDaniel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl_A4mRGFZk


As for building for $1000, our prices here are higher on everything than in the US.
There are some savings if you can get used steel and motors at less than full retail prices, maybe a reservoir .
Of course that depends on tonnage too, as everything gets more expensive as it gets larger.
I'm guessing 1,500 ish minimum, with 13% sales tax which adds a couple of hundred on top of that.
 
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If you have a place that can accept delivery in the US, for $2800usd shipped you can get one from Uncle Al's (riverside machine).
I have one waiting for me in Washington state and I will be heading down in a couple weeks to pick it up.
 
SBranson, thanks I thought of that as well. I emailed Al a couple times asking for information and never got a reply.. but that is a good idea nonetheless, and one I may resort to if I don't end up building my own. I just need to sit down and do my homework about hydraulics in general and see if it's out of my reach or not. My other concern is making a small booboo which results in 4000 psi of liquid shooting out like a laser beam and causing me to be 2 people :P But I think I would build guards around all the hosing and fittings etc just in case.
 
Trust me, if I can build one, you can too. Get the Batson book, I didn't build mine like any of the presses there, but I did use there plumbing diagrams and learned a lot about hydraulics from it. It took me a while to build as well, I didn't start actually building until I had gathered all the parts. When all is said and done the hydraulic plumbing is fairly simple, it just takes a little getting used too. A good source of info here http://www.dfoggknives.com/presses.htm
 
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Try phoning. I had trouble getting much from emails as well.
My take on it was that after spending that much time learning and amassing parts (though being in Ontario it will be 1000 times easier to find than it is out here)
I could've made quite a few knives. Yes it would be cool to make my own press but if I invested all that time and have it crap out.. Just not enough hours in the day to do everything.
Good luck!
 
mgysgthath said:
I have the CAD drawings and all the info I could gather for Eric's build, which is an awesome press btw.. I don't need the automatic feature at all, just a good working press.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the complement regarding my press WIP. I'd be glad to help you if you have any questions. I learned alot during the press build.

Eric
 
Thanks Eric, much appreciated :) I will get in touch when I know enough to ask informed questions. I ordered the aforementioned book and I'm gonna peruse that and see how much I can glean from it. SB I just might, and you raise a good point.. but as of right now it's a hobby that I'd love to make a business someday, so time isn't money persay.
 
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