Hydraulic Press Build: comments please

Willie71

Willie71

Warren J. Krywko
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
12,214
I'm going to start my press build next week, and am going to purchase the hydraulics on Thursday, as well as order the steel. I've read a number of threads and looked at a lot of pictures, and this is my plan, so if anyone has any last words of advice, I'm open to hearing it. I will be making a press similar to the one at Anderson forge, but probably won't go as wide.

5hp, 220/240 electric motor.
5" bore, 18" stroke ram.
11gpm pump.
? 5 gallon resevoir?

Steel:

Bottom and top beam 6" I- beam. 1/2" thick.
Uprights: 4x6" rectangular 3/8" thick. I'm thinking of a 3 piece design instead, with a pair of 3x3" tubes welded side by side. This would reduce flex in all planes. I could then use another 3x3 welded to the inside of these beams to act as guides for the ram and dye holder. I've been debating square vs. round guides and am leaning toward square. Properly sized channel would glide over the beams as the ram moves up and down.

Any thoughts?
 
Guidelines for HPU building tend to recommend a tank that holds as much as the pump can push in a minute. So, in your case an 11 gallon tank. However, I have seen tanks a bit smaller than that rule of thumb, used often enough. 8-10 gallons might be nice. Although, you may not be running the press for super long sessions where the oil would tend to heat up a lot.

11 gpm for a 5" bore will give you a slightly slowish ram speed. I assume you've done the calcs, found that, and called it good... it'll be as fast as my press anyway, and I like mine fine.

It's hard to visualize the frame fully, at least the die holders/slider assembly. Drawing?
 
Salem Straub said:
Guidelines for HPU building tend to recommend a tank that holds as much as the pump can push in a minute. So, in your case an 11 gallon tank. However, I have seen tanks a bit smaller than that rule of thumb, used often enough. 8-10 gallons might be nice. Although, you may not be running the press for super long sessions where the oil would tend to heat up a lot.

11 gpm for a 5" bore will give you a slightly slowish ram speed. I assume you've done the calcs, found that, and called it good... it'll be as fast as my press anyway, and I like mine fine.

It's hard to visualize the frame fully, at least the die holders/slider assembly. Drawing?
Click to expand...

I can go a bit bigger on the pump and tank as you suggest. I'll have to make sure I can still use a 5hp motor with a bigger pump. That might be the limiting factor. I'll do a drawing of the frame design. It'll be similar to the one in the link the count posted, but with the guides being square welded to the uprights.
 
I have a 5 hp mtr at 1725 rpm. I am using it with a 16 gpm pump. Also a 10 gal tank.
When using the press it always seems to have enough pressure.
It usually runs at a 1000 to 15000 lbs per sq inch. We go by how much we want to move the steel rather than how much pressure we can put on the press.
TJ Smith
 
Thanks TJ Smith.

Top down image from a very basic app I just downloaded.

28893716675_6423ee81ea_c.jpg
[/url]image by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]

The ram will attach to the die holder which will attach to channel iron that will be milled to a slip fit over the inner uprights. The Anderson press fully encapsulates the guides, which wouldn't be needed with this design. The guides will add to the structural integrity of the uprights.
 
Last edited:
16GPM and a 10-12 gallon tank. If you will be running the press for long runs, use a 15 gallon tank. The oil will get too hot if there isn't enough reserve.

I used to recommend a 22/16GPM pump, but the current thinking is that one speed is all we need for a forging press. It only moves a small distance between strokes.


Design as many automated functions as possible. A stop that will limit the up stroke to an inch or so above the billet will keep cycling down. Adding a switch/lever to the stop to automatically reverse the stroke when it hits the stop is even faster. Going full electronic controller with a foot pedal and auto press/reverse timers is the best system you can build. It is the press version of a power hammer.

As a simple control, an arm connected to the control valve can be connected to a foot bar ( similar to the one on a power hammer) and you press for down and lift for up. A couple springs keep it in the neutral mode when the foot is not on the bar.The same thing ca be set up with a left/right pedal where the left side is down and the right side is up.
 
I've never heard of automated press controllers. I'll have to look into that. I was going to use a foot switch, but depending on price, I may go automated. That sounds ideal. :thumbup:

Any recommendations on brands or suppliers?
 
i have ran my press with 2 guys working for 2-3 hours at a time and had no heat build up in the fluid. The press frame does get hot around the anvil and hammer.
KISS. I don't mind moving the lever on the control back and forth so I like to keep things simple
 
You can keep your initial build simple and then plumb in more complexity, for auto-feed and the like. Eric Fleming is a good guy to talk to about advanced press functions.
TJ's press sounds a lot like mine. 5hp, 1725 rpm, 16 gpm 2-stage pump. I have my pressure relief set at 2500 psi but I rarely push up past 2000 while working.

I see the frame details now, don't know why that wouldn't work. As long as your slider is fairly long and well tightened throughout its length. Anything you can do to reduce racking.
 
Ok, work has been crazy. Not too much shop time, but I picked up the cylinder and pump today. The guy at the hydraulic shop said I would need a 25hp motor to run a 16gpm pump. You guys are using 5hp. Am I getting something completely wrong here? He told me I could "maybe" run a 3gpm pump with 5hp.

Oh, they were sold out of the 18" stroke, but the 24" stroke was the same price. Way more than needed, but definitely not a limitation. I do have a 12hp gas electric start motor I could mount outside the shop, and plumb the lines through the walls.
 
Last edited:
Willie71 said:
Ok, work has been crazy. Not too much shop time, but I picked up the cylinder and pump today. The guy at the hydraulic shop said I would need a 25hp motor to run a 16gpm pump. You guys are using 5hp. Am I getting something completely wrong here? He told me I could "maybe" run a 3gpm pump with 5hp.

Oh, they were sold out of the 18" stroke, but the 24" stroke was the same price. Way more than needed, but definitely not a limitation. I do have a 12hp gas electric start motor I could mount outside the shop, and plumb the lines through the walls.
Click to expand...

Most of our travel is not under load.
 
Ours runs off 5hp with no problem...
On a side note I saw an industrial press on a video the other day that was 35 tons and the ram speed was more than 3 feet per second! faster than any forging press Ive ever seen by far..35 tons almost as fast as hand hammering..
 
Yeah, the 16 gpm is the high flow side of a 2 stage pump. That's at a low pressure, so it takes much less HP than 2500 psi at 16 gpm would.
your pump will be 16/4 gpm most likely, which is what I run. However, I have a 1725 rpm motor so the pump is effectively 8/2 gpm at that speed. I don't recall what your motor RPM is? If you have a 3450 motor, you may want to stay with that 11 gpm 2 stage pump as 5 hp would be underpowered for that 16 gpm 2 stage pump.
 
Salem Straub said:
Yeah, the 16 gpm is the high flow side of a 2 stage pump. That's at a low pressure, so it takes much less HP than 2500 psi at 16 gpm would.
your pump will be 16/4 gpm most likely, which is what I run. However, I have a 1725 rpm motor so the pump is effectively 8/2 gpm at that speed. I don't recall what your motor RPM is? If you have a 3450 motor, you may want to stay with that 11 gpm 2 stage pump as 5 hp would be underpowered for that 16 gpm 2 stage pump.
Click to expand...

I went with a single speed pump based on the recommendations above. I am going to use a 1725 rpm motor. I haven't bought the motor yet.
 
Willie, I am concerned that with what you are ordering, you will not achieve success due to incorrect calculations. I want to make sure you understand everything involved, so let me in my fumbling way to try to produce a clear technical explanation.
Here is roughly what you are wanting to achieve, as I understand it.

5" Cylinder
2" Rod
You'll need to pressurize the oil to 2500 PSI
To achieve 49,087 lbs push force

That would be nearly 25 tons, an adequate working force for a bladesmith press.

If you go with a 16GPM single stage pump, you will need a BIG motor to pressurize the oil to 2500 PSI at that flow rate.
HP required to produce 2500 PSI at 16 GPM, 5" cylinder: 25-27 according to multiple online calculators.
It would be a super badass press, since it never slows down and you'd be getting 25 tons of press at a high ram speed, right into your steel. This is how Larry Langdon and some others are making forging presses. It costs.

If you try to hook a 5 hp 3450 rpm motor to that pump, it will never build the pressure you need.
In fact it looks as though you'd only build about 450 psi with 5 hp, at 16 gpm.

This is the pump that I run. Although it is nominally 16 GPM, let me lay out how it can work for me, at 5hp.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...r-Pumps/16-GPM-2-STAGE-HYD-PUMP-9-7503-16.axd

First let's run the numbers for this pump, using a 3450 RPM motor like most would.
7.13 hp is required to build 650 psi for the low pressure/high speed stage (16 GPM) with that pump, and the high pressure/low speed stage (4 gpm) will require 6.85 hp. Your 5 hp 3450 RPM motor will almost accomplish that. A 7.5 HP 3450 RPM motor would work great, and perhaps you'll want to consider that. Ram speed would be 3.1 IPS in the 16 GPM stage, pretty nice!

Now let's look at using a 5 hp 1725 RPM motor with that pump. The important thing to understand is that halving the speed of the motor means that the pump output will be halved. The displacement of the pump remains the same, but in a given amount of time, it spins half the amount of rotations, so the GPM pumped will be half of the pump's rating, which is given at 3450 RPM.

This has the fortunate effect of more or less halving the HP required, and the less desirable effect of halving the ram speed produced.
Here are the numbers for my system, then- in which the pump is effectively 8/2 GPM.
650 PSI, 8 GPM, low pressure/hi flo stage: 3.6 HP required.
2500 PSI, 2 GPM, hi pressure/low flo stage: 3.43 HP required.
You can see that in that scenario, a 5 hp motor fills the bill quite handily. Here are the ram speeds I achieve, which I find acceptable.
0.4 inches per second ram speed, high pressure/25 tons, push
1.6 extend (push) speed at 650 psi low pressure stage
1.9 retract speed at 650 psi.

Partly what drove my choice to build like I did, was that I found this killer 5hp 1725 TEFC Baldor motor secondhand for $100 when I was gearing up for my build. Then I read that Don Hanson uses the same system, which bolstered my confidence to try it. Don also mentioned that the press is quieter at 1725 RPM than at 3450, and that is true. I wear hearing protection anyway, but it's a bit of an added plus.

Here is a link to calculators for hydraulic cylinder push/pull force, and ram speed:
http://www.baumhydraulics.com/pages.php?pageid=4

Here's a link to a calculator for required motor HP, at various PSI:
http://www.bbhydraulics.com/pumpcalculator3.html

I hope that all of the above is somewhat clearer than mud. I'd be happy to kick it around further if necessary for a complete understanding.
 
Thank you so much! I do need a two stage pump if I stay at 5hp. I was looking at some used 10hp motors on eBay. That might be the ticket. :thumbup:
 
OK. That's the model 1056. Let's look at the manual.
http://images.palcdn.com/hlr-system/Documents/12/122/1221/1221555_manual.pdf

According to the manual, the 16 gpm output is at 3600 RPM. Max pressure for the first (hi speed, lo press) stage is 500 PSI, then it switches into 2nd stage for hi press.

THis is for a 3600 RPM motor- 3450 would need a little less HP and generate a little less speed. But I digress.

500 psi @ 16 gpm = 5.49 hp required.
2500 psi @4 gpm = 6.86 hp required.

So, a 7.5 hp motor would work fine if 3450 RPM.

Running the numbers with 1725 RPM, effectively then a 8/2 gpm pump:
500 psi @ 8 gpm = 2.75 hp required.
2500 PSI @ 2 gpm = 3.43 hp required.

Again, in that scenario your ram speed would be 1.6 ips hi speed and 0.4 ips lo speed. A 5 hp motor would work.
Theoretically, since you still have some available horsepower (up to 5hp) you could raise your max pressure to 3000 psi and generate nearly 30 tons to make the most of your motor... but the relatively small gain in push force is not worth the added risk of running your system at 3000, in my opinion.
 
Salem Straub said:
OK. That's the model 1056. Let's look at the manual.
http://images.palcdn.com/hlr-system/Documents/12/122/1221/1221555_manual.pdf

According to the manual, the 16 gpm output is at 3600 RPM. Max pressure for the first (hi speed, lo press) stage is 500 PSI, then it switches into 2nd stage for hi press.

THis is for a 3600 RPM motor- 3450 would need a little less HP and generate a little less speed. But I digress.

500 psi @ 16 gpm = 5.49 hp required.
2500 psi @4 gpm = 6.86 hp required.

So, a 7.5 hp motor would work fine if 3450 RPM.

Running the numbers with 1725 RPM, effectively then a 8/2 gpm pump:
500 psi @ 8 gpm = 2.75 hp required.
2500 PSI @ 2 gpm = 3.43 hp required.

Again, in that scenario your ram speed would be 1.6 ips hi speed and 0.4 ips lo speed. A 5 hp motor would work.
Theoretically, since you still have some available horsepower (up to 5hp) you could raise your max pressure to 3000 psi and generate nearly 30 tons to make the most of your motor... but the relatively small gain in push force is not worth the added risk of running your system at 3000, in my opinion.
Click to expand...


Perfect, if I go with a bigger motor, 7.5-10hp for example, I can keep the 3450 speed, and maximize the ram speed. Seems like a win win, other than the noise issue mentioned earlier.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top