Hypereutectoid steel

69_knives said:
I'm open to suggestion...
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I understand this isn't answering your direct question...

My opinion is, if I absolutely had to use a substitute quench oil (an oil not specifically designed to do the job to best advantage), I would use canola oil and I would replace it fairly frequently.

I can't tell you exactly what the replacement schedule range would be or all of what to look for in deciding. I know I had failed quenches in vegetable oil but I don't know the exact causes. I believe it was oxidizing of the oil through repeated heating, thereby changing the cooling curve of the oil.

I don't know if you know Scott Mckenzie. He is Houghton International's metallurgist and quenchant specialist. Scott posts on both BS and SFI ~metallurgy. He put up a post on BS a while back stating, of the substitute quench mediums, canola oil best matched the ideal cooling curves (fast in the beginning and slow at the end) and is in the fast range for quench oils.

I don't know how much longer quench oil will last over the various substitutes. I feel it is quite some little bit.

Mike
 
Mike Krall said:
I understand this isn't answering your direct question...

My opinion is, if I absolutely had to use a substitute quench oil (an oil not specifically designed to do the job to best advantage), I would use canola oil and I would replace it fairly frequently.

I can't tell you exactly what the replacement schedule range would be or all of what to look for in deciding. I know I had failed quenches in vegetable oil but I don't know the exact causes. I believe it was oxidizing of the oil through repeated heating, thereby changing the cooling curve of the oil.

I don't know if you know Scott Mckenzie. He is Houghton International's metallurgist and quenchant specialist. Scott posts on both BS and SFI ~metallurgy. He put up a post on BS a while back stating, of the substitute quench mediums, canola oil best matched the ideal cooling curves (fast in the beginning and slow at the end) and is in the fast range for quench oils.

I don't know how much longer quench oil will last over the various substitutes. I feel it is quite some little bit.

Mike
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That's better than a direct answer. Thanks!
 
69_knives said:
That's better than a direct answer. Thanks!
Click to expand...

This quench oil thing is a little off the side of "Hypereutectoid", so I'll keep this short. Houghton has quench oils equivalent to Park's #50 and AAA.... Houghto-quench "K" and "G". They can be bought out of eastern Penn. in 5 gallon batches... not cheap. Scott Mckenzie has made an offer, that if a person contacts him through the forums he posts on (BS & SFI), he will put you into contact with either distributors or large users nearby so a person can maybe get them cheaper.

Mike

Edit: PS ~ I think a person could search Houghton and/or Houghton International either here or on Bladesmith Forum or Sword Forum International and find out a little more about Houghton quenchants.
 
I stumbled across this PDF file regarding heat treatment of steels and have been trying to absorb it for a few days.

I need to take that and TTT diagram for 1095 and the 5 pages of this thread and distill it down into a little step-by-step quick reference guide I can use while at the forge so I can get the specific temps and times that are correct for each step.
 
Just a question I thought of earlier today. With the addition of alloying elements pushing the eutectoid point below the 0.77-0.80 carbon composition, do the compositions for plate and lathe martensite change as well? I suspect not, but havent seen anything to confirm it.
 
The compositions and how they form the different martensites are not clear and distinct. Near the eutectoid will be a mix of the two .
 
So if the eutectoid is pushed down to 0.60%, then will it still be a mixed lathe and plate structure?
 
Hello Kevin
I have a friend that works for a Sharpening company that does Saw Blades from Cabinet Shops. I have looked on the Blades to see if I can see any marking on what type of metal there made of, with no luck. Do you know if there is a Standard Grade of Steel that manf use?
Thanks in Advance
Eddie
 
There are no standard alloys for saw blades. There have been many changes in recent years. For example hand tools - Stanley hand saws now are throw away ! Never sharpen them .That's not good for me as I learned to sharpen many types of saw blades a long time ago !
 
LexEdman said:
Hello Kevin
I have a friend that works for a Sharpening company that does Saw Blades from Cabinet Shops. I have looked on the Blades to see if I can see any marking on what type of metal there made of, with no luck. Do you know if there is a Standard Grade of Steel that manf use?
Thanks in Advance
Eddie
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Eddie,

Not Kevin... a thing just about everybody can say... =]

If I had to guess, the blades your sharpening-shop friend sees all have carbide teeth brazed on. The bodies of carbide toothed blades are ususally made of a tough steel. That is, not made of a steel a person would be happy to have for making knife blades.

There was a time when saw blades were self-toothed, requiring the entire blade to be a tough, yet high carbon, steel, commonly in the 0.70-0.75% carbon range... with or without nickel and/or chromium for added toughness.

I don't know how long ago that stopped being generally true, but Mete said it... there are no standard saw alloys and haven't been for a while.

Mike
 
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Thanks Guys
We did a quick temper on a small piece of the blade and it worked. I Have a fellow Knifemaker says that it is Mysetry steel.
 
well, ill tell you what, i learned much more about metals in the past 25 min of reading this forum than i did the entirety of my education. but i have a couple questions.

Firstly im going to start with making my first knife out of a file, i watched some videos on youtube from a guy named greenpete and im relatively sure about my process.

I am wondering if while quenching ill be using water, that is around 65-80f and if this will cause the blade to explode?

if this water is too cold i do about around 8 gallons of canola oil that can be used would that be better overall till it is used?
 
Trkaylor said:
well, ill tell you what, i learned much more about metals in the past 25 min of reading this forum than i did the entirety of my education. but i have a couple questions.

Firstly im going to start with making my first knife out of a file, i watched some videos on youtube from a guy named greenpete and im relatively sure about my process.

I am wondering if while quenching ill be using water, that is around 65-80f and if this will cause the blade to explode?

if this water is too cold i do about around 8 gallons of canola oil that can be used would that be better overall till it is used?
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If it were me, I'd use the canola oil. It has as good a cooling curve for fast steels as any of the non-commercial quenchants (motor oil, hyd. oil, olive oil, etc., etc.). I'd advise rereading this thread, too... maybe taking notes on specific steps in the proper HT-ing process... it's sometimes easy to lose mental notes when on the steeper part of the learning/doing curve.

Have fun...

Mike
 
Are you going to be buying the canola oil? Couldn't really tell if it was going to be 'used' before using or just after. Take it from somebody who's been there, if you plan on using 1095 steel in the near future, just buy a fast commercial oil now and don't waste your money on canola.
 
Wow thanks so much Kevin your amazing!

I read The Metallography of Iron and Steel over the summer:o and you are really helping me to make since of it. But I got a couple of questions.

shouldn't it be possible to make a small piece of Hyper-Eutectoid steel form only one grain, by soaking it for so long and cooling it really really slowly, much like the "growing" of silicon. and since the cementite is pushed to the edges of the grain(s) could you somehow arrange it into a useful edge. know I know that for regular knives this would not be practical, or even desired, but for some applications, say scalpels where super sharpness is needed it could be good.

What about High speed steels, or is this outside the scope of this post
 
"can only form over millions of years of cooling" WRONG ! Widmanstatten can be done in a short time as I did it in my first metallurgy course ! Single crystals can also be made in a short time. Trying to make single crystals of hypereutectoids would present problems.
HSS is just another hypereutectoid.
 
yes I realize that HSS is Hyper-eutectoid, however it is completely different heat treat/temper wise, for instance CPM M4 Austenizes at 2150 F, and tempers at 1050 F, and I was seeking some advice about soak time, quenching medium, and tempering time.

as for the single grained steel I believe it can be made, it is seen often in asteroids, but can also be manufactured. though no one does
 
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