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Hypothermia a stealthy killer ?
- Thread starter Kevin the grey
- Start date
I assume Michael, that you are a young guy and probably in good shape? I remember the days.
What you say is true to a point. As long as you can do hard work you will probably stay warm as long as you have enough food and water. But, many people will exhaust themselves before they get to a safe place by working hard enough to keep warm. When they realize that they are lost or that they will not make it back to where they are heading, "in time" (whatever that means), they panic and sometimes run blindly until exhausted and then they are too tired to make a shelter and change out of wet clothes. The clothes are usually wet because they didn't practice sweat control and take off excessive clothing while they were running blindly through the woods overheating. Being young and strong and being able to move fast saves a lot of us when we are young. Like I said, I remember the days. Problem is many people don't understand that there are some situations that you cannot bull your way out of and that is exactly what can get them in trouble. Instead of working hard they should have stopped and started to make a decent shelter and a fire if they can. They should eat what food they have and drink plenty of water. And they should know that because they left an intinerary with someone they trust people will be out searching for them and know where to look.KR
- Joined
- Nov 7, 1999
- Messages
- 6,651
Hey Guys...
"Originally Posted by michael p
As long as enough water and calories go in...you can work hard and stay warm."
I would say, spend a day walking in the spring in Northern Ont where it can be warm during the day..Then spend a night in the rain,, without shelter sitting under a tree...
By morning,, you'll be screwed,, and hoping S&R finds you Fast!!
Happens All the time ...
While we were bear hunting a young lady was walking on a private piece of property 60,000 acres,, seen a bear,,got scared and ran into the woods...
She spent the entire night in the rain,in heavily wooded,, Extremely dangerous,with a concentrated bear count , no flashlight, no lighter, no food, water and only dressed in warm weather day clothes.. This happened Sept 02 ..
She was found right after day break, alive,, but not feeling so well..
It can happen to anyone,, even in the summer....Although your chances of survival are much more improved during summer months...
ttyle
Eric
O/ST
"Originally Posted by michael p
As long as enough water and calories go in...you can work hard and stay warm."
I would say, spend a day walking in the spring in Northern Ont where it can be warm during the day..Then spend a night in the rain,, without shelter sitting under a tree...
By morning,, you'll be screwed,, and hoping S&R finds you Fast!!
Happens All the time ...
While we were bear hunting a young lady was walking on a private piece of property 60,000 acres,, seen a bear,,got scared and ran into the woods...
She spent the entire night in the rain,in heavily wooded,, Extremely dangerous,with a concentrated bear count , no flashlight, no lighter, no food, water and only dressed in warm weather day clothes.. This happened Sept 02 ..
She was found right after day break, alive,, but not feeling so well..
It can happen to anyone,, even in the summer....Although your chances of survival are much more improved during summer months...
ttyle
Eric
O/ST
Many great tips and explanations have been posted here. Codger, warmed Jello sounds like a great energy drink. KR, I too have been taught the connection between hypothermia and dehydration. Thanks for bringing it up.
Hypothermia is probably at its sneakiest not when it is below zero outdoors and snowing, but in those intermediate conditions. Working hard, sweating, and then sitting down on 50 degree windy day can lead to trouble. Trying to save money on heating costs by turning down the thermostat at home, and then not compensating with appropiate clothing or activity. Sounds strange, but happens to seniors every year. So as was stated above, hypothermia is always possible, not just in the winter.
Hypothermia is probably at its sneakiest not when it is below zero outdoors and snowing, but in those intermediate conditions. Working hard, sweating, and then sitting down on 50 degree windy day can lead to trouble. Trying to save money on heating costs by turning down the thermostat at home, and then not compensating with appropiate clothing or activity. Sounds strange, but happens to seniors every year. So as was stated above, hypothermia is always possible, not just in the winter.
The Jello (make sure it is "sweetened" Jello) is carried by many SAR teams. Hot sweet liquids helps bring back someone who is in stage I or II hypothermia.
Absolutely!
Again, you are absolutely correct. You sound like someone who knows about this first hand. Add in the fact that the thremoregulation on many seniors is screwed up to begin with and that others are screwed up because of the many medications that they take and there is always the potential for a disaster with seniors in weather below 60 degrees. Try sitting in a room at 59 degrees for days on end in just a light shirt and pants and see if you don't become hypothermic. Imagine that the elderly cannot recognize that they are getting cold because their system just doesn't work right. How many of you have been in an elderly persons house when they have the themostat set to 75 or 80. Obviously, their thermoregulation system has a problem.
KR
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2004
- Messages
- 4,812
This is old news. In fact skip this post.
But I also disagree with the idea that hypothermia can be avoided by caloric intake, exercise, etc. I've read Moine's post on the other thread, and feel those can mitigate the onset--but not prevent. Here's an easy test. Go swimming on a nice hot day, and then get out of the water. Feel yourself start to shiver? I've noticed folks at a backyard pool start to shiver on 80-degree F days.
*That* is an early warning sign. And it shows how easily anyone can be subject to hypothermia.
But we're not talking about pools and recreation, necessarily. Add a good afternoon rain to a 60-degree day, and you can find yourself shivering just as fast. A brief shiver is not the onset of hypothermia--but if your shivering lasts more than about three-to-five seconds, you're at risk right there.
But I also disagree with the idea that hypothermia can be avoided by caloric intake, exercise, etc. I've read Moine's post on the other thread, and feel those can mitigate the onset--but not prevent. Here's an easy test. Go swimming on a nice hot day, and then get out of the water. Feel yourself start to shiver? I've noticed folks at a backyard pool start to shiver on 80-degree F days.
*That* is an early warning sign. And it shows how easily anyone can be subject to hypothermia.
But we're not talking about pools and recreation, necessarily. Add a good afternoon rain to a 60-degree day, and you can find yourself shivering just as fast. A brief shiver is not the onset of hypothermia--but if your shivering lasts more than about three-to-five seconds, you're at risk right there.
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2005
- Messages
- 4,106
Take it easy on yourself. We don,t think you are slow . L:O:L
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
Tons of really good information in this thread.
We've learned more about the problem since Lathrop wrote Hypothermia: Killer of the Unprepared. Lathrop said adequate clothing, knowledge, shelter, and food were the solution, but his lead example shows that it's the mental aspects that is the key. He tells the story of two young, fit guys with a fat bank account's-worth of gear in their packs who died in cold, wet weather -- tent, sleeping bags, foam pads, stoves, food, latest clothing, and dead the both of them. They were the victims of ignorance about the signs OR stupid pride, which will kill you just as quickly.
Imagine, if you will, a Scout Troop -- 22 boys and three adults. They are backpacking in PA the last weekend in October. The light rain turns to an ice storm. The temperature continues to drop. Snow starts to fall over the coating of ice. After lunch, the adults confer with the youth leaders. Keep on seven miles on the icy, sloped trail at the edge of the lake in the deteriorating weather or go back a gentle four miles to the cars and camp in the park? Two of the adults urge going on: "Troop 22 never gives up." The SPL gives his judgment: "We go back."
They went back -- roped together. All made it, and they recall an adventurous weekend in the woods -- rain, ice, eight inches of snow, more rain.
SAR and ANF personnel rescued several dozen from that area that weekend. I don't think anyone died.
I still recall how angry those two adults were over being overruled by a boy --who had better sense than they did.
Know your enemy, accept it's power, and act accordingly.
We've learned more about the problem since Lathrop wrote Hypothermia: Killer of the Unprepared. Lathrop said adequate clothing, knowledge, shelter, and food were the solution, but his lead example shows that it's the mental aspects that is the key. He tells the story of two young, fit guys with a fat bank account's-worth of gear in their packs who died in cold, wet weather -- tent, sleeping bags, foam pads, stoves, food, latest clothing, and dead the both of them. They were the victims of ignorance about the signs OR stupid pride, which will kill you just as quickly.
Imagine, if you will, a Scout Troop -- 22 boys and three adults. They are backpacking in PA the last weekend in October. The light rain turns to an ice storm. The temperature continues to drop. Snow starts to fall over the coating of ice. After lunch, the adults confer with the youth leaders. Keep on seven miles on the icy, sloped trail at the edge of the lake in the deteriorating weather or go back a gentle four miles to the cars and camp in the park? Two of the adults urge going on: "Troop 22 never gives up." The SPL gives his judgment: "We go back."
They went back -- roped together. All made it, and they recall an adventurous weekend in the woods -- rain, ice, eight inches of snow, more rain.
SAR and ANF personnel rescued several dozen from that area that weekend. I don't think anyone died.
I still recall how angry those two adults were over being overruled by a boy --who had better sense than they did.
Know your enemy, accept it's power, and act accordingly.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2003
- Messages
- 494
Hi,
Well it's quite simple. Core temps are just like a bank account. You have income, and you have bills and expenses. If you have more income than expenses, you pile up heat. Otherwise, you get cold.
In a cold setup (environment colder than your body), 4 things pump heat away from you :
- conduction
- convection
- radiation
- evaporation
What produces heat is :
- basal metabolic rate, which is a complex thing :
--- it gets slower and slower as you get hypothermic (> 35°C)
--- it gets faster when you're just slightly cold (thanks to adrenalin)
--- it's sped up by caloric intake
- brown adipose cells (fat furnaces that produce heat from fat, leaving your glycogen stores alone)
- energy expenditure (exercise or shivering) : this is a short term solution only. At some point you're exhausted and need to rest.
Calories will fuel the shivering and thus delay the onset of hypothermia. But if you do not get to a context where your basal metabolic rate + brown fat cells heat production will be enought to keep your core temps stable, eventually you'll become exhausted and stop shivering (or exercising).
You're at risk whenever you have to shiver or exercise in order to keep your core temp stable. This means you should seek to block away the Big Bad Motherf... Four (BBMFF as some army guys would put it
) :
- conduction
- convection
- radiation
- evaporation
If you can calmly lay down and do nothing for many hours straight without getting even cold feet, you're safe (have enough clothing and/or shelter).
To me, the first and foremost sign that I am loosing too much heat is when my extremeties become cold. This means my core temp is dropping, and my body is starting to react. So as SOON as the feet or hands get cold, I add up insulation. The same way around, as SOON as I start feeling too hot in the face/neck/ears area I know I'm overheating so I remove some insulation to avoid sweating.
Hypothermia is something we can easily prevent, given we react promptly to it's first warning signs. The more you let your body get far from it's ideal state (circa 37°C / 98.6°F), the harder it will be to get it back to normal. If you get down to 35°C, you'll most likely recover by yourself (still expect two full "I don't feel too good" days). If you get down to coma and 20°C core, it'll be hard and risky to bring you back.
Re reheating hypothermic people : it's a very complex thing. As a rule of thumb, as soon as the consciousness of the victim is altered (irrational behavior/coma), reheating really should be done under close medical supervision as the risks of cardiac fibrillation/arrest (already mentioned), gastric hemorragies, oedemas, hypo/hyperkaliemia, etc etc are numerous. This is serious stuff for serious professionals with serious gear (monitoring and defibrillator at the VERY least). The ideal setup being extra-corporal circulation (with external heating and cleaning up of the blood), warm ventilation (02) among other unpleasant things like gastric and intestinal reheating with warm fluids, etc.
Reheating should be done from the core towards the extremeties (core first), and as spontaneously as possible (if at all possible the victim should be placed in a neutral athmosphere and allowed to reheat herself on her own). Unless under medical supervision, reheating should be slow and controlled (1°C every hour or so). Unless the person is still able to move around on her own, an hypothermic VICTIM SHOULD BE MOVED AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE, NEVER MOVING THE LIMBS TOO MUCH. This probably is the most important thing as you can move around cold and polluted blood and bring it to the core, which can cause fibrillation and/or cardiac arrest.
Prevention is a LOT better than cure, as usual.
Cheers,
David
Well it's quite simple. Core temps are just like a bank account. You have income, and you have bills and expenses. If you have more income than expenses, you pile up heat. Otherwise, you get cold.
In a cold setup (environment colder than your body), 4 things pump heat away from you :
- conduction
- convection
- radiation
- evaporation
What produces heat is :
- basal metabolic rate, which is a complex thing :
--- it gets slower and slower as you get hypothermic (> 35°C)
--- it gets faster when you're just slightly cold (thanks to adrenalin)
--- it's sped up by caloric intake
- brown adipose cells (fat furnaces that produce heat from fat, leaving your glycogen stores alone)
- energy expenditure (exercise or shivering) : this is a short term solution only. At some point you're exhausted and need to rest.
Calories will fuel the shivering and thus delay the onset of hypothermia. But if you do not get to a context where your basal metabolic rate + brown fat cells heat production will be enought to keep your core temps stable, eventually you'll become exhausted and stop shivering (or exercising).
You're at risk whenever you have to shiver or exercise in order to keep your core temp stable. This means you should seek to block away the Big Bad Motherf... Four (BBMFF as some army guys would put it
) :- conduction
- convection
- radiation
- evaporation
If you can calmly lay down and do nothing for many hours straight without getting even cold feet, you're safe (have enough clothing and/or shelter).
To me, the first and foremost sign that I am loosing too much heat is when my extremeties become cold. This means my core temp is dropping, and my body is starting to react. So as SOON as the feet or hands get cold, I add up insulation. The same way around, as SOON as I start feeling too hot in the face/neck/ears area I know I'm overheating so I remove some insulation to avoid sweating.
Hypothermia is something we can easily prevent, given we react promptly to it's first warning signs. The more you let your body get far from it's ideal state (circa 37°C / 98.6°F), the harder it will be to get it back to normal. If you get down to 35°C, you'll most likely recover by yourself (still expect two full "I don't feel too good" days). If you get down to coma and 20°C core, it'll be hard and risky to bring you back.
Re reheating hypothermic people : it's a very complex thing. As a rule of thumb, as soon as the consciousness of the victim is altered (irrational behavior/coma), reheating really should be done under close medical supervision as the risks of cardiac fibrillation/arrest (already mentioned), gastric hemorragies, oedemas, hypo/hyperkaliemia, etc etc are numerous. This is serious stuff for serious professionals with serious gear (monitoring and defibrillator at the VERY least). The ideal setup being extra-corporal circulation (with external heating and cleaning up of the blood), warm ventilation (02) among other unpleasant things like gastric and intestinal reheating with warm fluids, etc.
Reheating should be done from the core towards the extremeties (core first), and as spontaneously as possible (if at all possible the victim should be placed in a neutral athmosphere and allowed to reheat herself on her own). Unless under medical supervision, reheating should be slow and controlled (1°C every hour or so). Unless the person is still able to move around on her own, an hypothermic VICTIM SHOULD BE MOVED AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE, NEVER MOVING THE LIMBS TOO MUCH. This probably is the most important thing as you can move around cold and polluted blood and bring it to the core, which can cause fibrillation and/or cardiac arrest.
Prevention is a LOT better than cure, as usual.
Cheers,
David