i dont believe in your fighting techniques

Originally posted by Steve Harvey
Kuntawman:

With all respect, in what way is your attitude toward other martial artists of any consequence or benefit to anyone but yourself?

I try to treat everyone with respect, if not friendship, even the ones I can beat up.

If somebody wants to practice a martial art without fighting, it is nothing to me. If I acheive something through my training, it is of no significance to anyone but me. We don't fight with our hands to protect our families any more. If anyone tries to hurt me or a member of my family, I don't need to know how to fight, only how to kill.

Any time it is not about survival, it is just a game, a hobby.

No calluses can stop a .45.
Click to expand...

i dont understand how my suggestion can be a benefit to me. ego means nothing if thats what you are asking.

my reason for these postings i make, is that the gun is probably the deadliest skill a man can have to another man, but there has to be a second skill when the gun is not available. i know how to shoot one, and i have two. but when i dont have my gun, and you come at me without one, somebody is going to be hurt. that is why many people come to the philippine martial arts. you dont always have the stick, or knife or whatever. so the martial artist has to be able to off somebody with whatever he has. and if that is your goal, what i am saying is, those drills aint going to help you none.

but if you live by the gun and you think martial art is worthless because some people carry one, and you practice martial arts for sport, for hobby, or for ego, my message is not for you. there is another forum for gun fighting i'm sure. but the name of this one is "philippine martial arts"

philippine martial artists of this western world need to understand that you need experience in something to understand what you are doing for martial arts. and you have to question everything you learn. now a benefit to me as a teacher, is that when someone questions my technique, if it is a student or another teacher, that is my opportunity to help somebody grow, and a chance for me do practice my skills, and if they like what i do, maybe i can make some mony teaching them.:D

but the time to get your experimenting out of the way is as a students. tournaments and matches, thats the only way. if you dont have a career of matches and tournaments, then you are not a martial arts teacher, you are a seminar teacher.

last week i went to elrick jundis gathering FMA in frisko. i had a good time, i got to met some interesting people, and i even had some people who invited me to spar and i accepted. but the best part of the day was at the end of the day we went to eat, and i saw, sparring in his own tournament, elrick jundis. i left with great respect for him then. ask yourself how many tournament and seminars did you go to and did you see the man in charge put his own reputation on the line to go and have a match? probably only on dog brothers. and most people just buy the tapes.

if you are a philippine martial arts fighter, then fight. if you are a hobbyiest, then enjoy your hobby the way you like to do it. but dont think that mustafa gatdula really gives a damn.
 
Originally posted by shmoopiebear

It's funny - I noticed that a lot of people in FMA and SouthEast Asian MA seem to die younger overall. Ted Lucay Lucay, Edgar Sulite, Remy Presas, Mike Inay, etc... They just don't seem as long lived for some reason. Don't know if this correlates to other arts.

It's no wonder FMA almost died. Too many people fighting duels or maybe it was the intensity and stress of the lifestyle.

I agree that unless the gunfighter is at close range, to be intercepted either empty hand or knife, they usually will win. Take the best FMA'er and usually they can be put down by somebody, with no combative experience, using a firearm.

The whole gun versus non-gun martial arts usually ended up with guns winning. Happened in the Phillipines with the Moros. Happened in China with the Boxers. Happened in India with the uprisings there, too. Even the Japanese knew that with the introduction of the musket and gunpowder, it rendered sowrd arts literally obsolete overnite.

Just my 2 cents. :footinmou
Click to expand...

many filipinos die early because they eat fatty food, like pork, and they get heart disease. we lost a lot of women R & B singers but r and b is not going to die out. the philippine martial arts never died out. and it wont.

duels is why the philippine martial arts today looks like it does instead of like kung fu or silat. duels are not even life or death like people think, that is the stories told by old pilipino men.

guns at close range do not always kill the target. this is why so many cops died. if your gun is in your shirt in the holder, or in your car, or under the matress when you are sleep you need a back up. if you guys dont believe in the martial arts, then why care what we are talking about on philippine martial arts forums? i feel like i am on the BJJ forums!

by the way the gun did not stop the "moro" this is why islam is still strong in the philippines.

does this sound familiar?

"i dont need (your style) because i have (karate/ninjitsu/grappling/jeet kun do/my gun)"
 
Hi kuntawman. I used to spar, traditonal - no gear as well as with gear using live weapons, and I was at the gathering, also. I was pretty low key there because I didn't know anybody and I was being respectful of other peopl's skill. I used to win quite a few matches and I lost a few, too. If you ask me why I don't spar like I used to, it is because I am getting older. I don't want things broken or that I can't fix back to the way they were. Believe me when I say that I did get injured in the past... bad. And it was not always from FMA or martial arts. I have the scars to show for it. Sometimes I regretted breaking or damaging something so bad that it was inconveniencing to my life and affect my livelihood. That is why I don't really really teach anymore, just like a traditionalist. I believe in put up or shut up. I was taught in the old ways where if you weren't learning and applying, you got beat up or were put down. I put in my time one on one with my seniors and my guros. I became good enough that my teacher said it was time to teach. There was nothing he could teach me and I had to learn by teaching. Since I am reluctant and don't really like to fight anymore, I gave up that mantleship a long time ago. Instead, I let people search me out or ask if they want to learn a little. Sometimes I search out people. Other fighting fma'ers can do the challenges and carry on the tradition. It is good that you are keeping that spirit alive. Maybe it is my attitude or mentality that has changed. For me, it has been for the better. It is a personal choice. People have to respect my boundaries and those things in me. Don't push me. If you do, then I am forced to take my olisi out that I hung up from retirement and defend my views, life, and family, if necessary. I am out to make more friends and not enemies. Had enough in my life and it was not positive for my growth. Life is too short. I am growing in a different way now and deal with conflict differently. I keep my nose clean and keep out of trouble as much as I can. I live with healthier habits now. If trouble comes looking for me, I will deal with it. Anyways, I could go on and on about this so I will stop. Consider it the musings of a veteran. Rock on. Peace. :cool:
 
Originally posted by thekuntawman
many filipinos die early because they eat fatty food, like pork, and they get heart disease. we lost a lot of women R & B singers but r and b is not going to die out. the philippine martial arts never died out. and it wont.

me: I agree

duels is why the philippine martial arts today looks like it does instead of like kung fu or silat. duels are not even life or death like people think, that is the stories told by old pilipino men.

me: You are correct. Most duels to the death ended pretty quick. Less than 10 seconds, from what I was told, when the opponents closed or clashed. This was pretty standard even for lower skilled opponents.

guns at close range do not always kill the target. this is why so many cops died. if your gun is in your shirt in the holder, or in your car, or under the matress when you are sleep you need a back up. if you guys dont believe in the martial arts, then why care what we are talking about on philippine martial arts forums? i feel like i am on the BJJ forums!

me: It depends on the combatants. Sometimes a knife or impact weapon has the advantage against a gun. Even empty handed has been known to persevere against a firearm. Depends on who the fighter is and how tough they are.

by the way the gun did not stop the "moro" this is why islam is still strong in the philippines.

me: I guess it is a matter of perspective. The Moros were stubborn, no doubt. Being conquered is all relative to which view you see it from. Depending on how strong their beliefs were, they would have been either xenophobic and existed as a
seperate, cloistered (secretive), isolated society. Or, they would be assimilated by the allure and benefits of another society who is establishing themselves. I won't go into the dynamics of politics or religion but you get the idea. Sometimes being conquered does not have to be through oppression or violence. It can be done through kindness, also.

does this sound familiar?

"i dont need (your style) because i have (karate/ninjitsu/grappling/jeet kun do/my gun)"
Click to expand...

me: Everybody is entitled to their view and opinion. I guess it only really matters when it comes down to somebody having to put up or shut up. There is a lot of denial and false confidence out there. There is, also, a lot of ignorance, too. I believe it is good to be educated, keep current, and be informed.

Mabuhay!
 
It is really hard to convey complex ideas in a written format like these forums.

My point, in frank terms, is this:

Martial arts like the FMA are primarily for self development. When it comes to survival, weapons, determination, and ferocity are the equivalent of fighting skill.

For personal development in the FMA, or any martial art, you depend on the help of others, those who are better than you to teach you, and those who are not as good as you to help you practice. Who wants to help someone who doesn't respect you?

There are plenty of people to learn from who will respect you before, during, and after a fight, win or lose, for being their partner in their own development. Why would anyone darken their day fighting with someone who didn't respect them?

You may have no respect for my style, but a crack-head with a stolen 9mm might have no respect for yours. A fight is an exhibition of skill. Survival is not. If you find yourself facing someone with little fighting skill, but with a .45 in their right hand, a bowie knife in their left, and the determination to kill you, or die trying, in their eyes, you will almost certainly show them some respect - at least enough respect to leave them alone - unless you are suicidally stupid.

Martial skill is a continuum. Almost regardless of how good you are, there are some people better, deadlier, or meaner. You can disrespect those who are weaker than you, and those who are stronger than you can disrespect you, but that is a way without honor.

Mangisursuro Mike Inay said, Without honor, there is no art, only pretenders in a brawl.
 
the use of the title "i dont believe in your style" is not meaning to be disrespectful. but it is suppose to be intimidating. what i mean is, if you make another martial artist (or any other person) feel a little uncomfortable, then that is one of the goals of the martial arts fighters. just like a thug will act a certain way to see if you have any heart, or to take it away from you, the martial artist has to be the same way. he cannot be peaceful and kumbaya (hands holding nice guy), especially to another martial artist. yeah they can become friends, but you lost some of the benefit of sparring with a stranger when you smile and say hello before your match.

i think we all are saying the same thing, we are preparing for the ideot out there with the gun or knife, or brick, or two and three friend, etc. but my point is, what people are missing from there training is the "animosity/adversary". it is better for you to learn from a match with a mean opponent than a "respectful" one. of course you stay in the rules, and you treat the opponent like a human if you are just having a match. but your intention should not be to learn but to BEAT him, and you learn from your won or loss.

sparring in a tournament is fun, but if you are serious about your goal of preparing for life or death fighting, then the tournament has to be "business". if you were at the gathering in SF you did not see me mixing with people (except people who i already know them), and collecting business cards from people to have matches between our schools. believe me, i like to meet new friends, and i am a very friendly guy, but as a teacher, i am responsible to make my boys tough and to have a "mean streak". we can do that making friends every place we go.

but of course when we have visitors and guest to our school, we treat them with respect. but there will have to be a moment of unfriendliness when they are preparing to have there matches.
 
hey i hope you didnt get offended by my words they are not meaning to be angry. i can understand that you dont fight anymore. i believe you are at the level where people should become a teacher, where you can show to other people what you learn when you were young. martial arts teachers of today dont have enough experience to be teachers, and they dont have there own fighting experience to teach from, only movments. when someone's fighting "career" is over, or close to over, then they are good people to become teachers. any teacher who gives the title "guro" to a man who did not have matches is adding water to the pools of philippine martial arts.

yesterday, somebody emailed me a website, where many of this styles "teachers" joined the style in 1997, 1999, etc. the "masters" have 1989, and 1985 on them. like don king said before "only in america". money and ego is a powerfule things.

people today think techniques and strategy and hard training is enough to make a street fighter. but they have to have strong will, pain tolerance, courage, unfriendliness, fighting experience and no fear of getting hurt. and most of all, they cannot even let there feelings get hurt easy. this is where many martial artist today are the weakest. argueing and dispute is healthy for the martial art fighter, it teaches him to alwasy be ready to defend himself.

but back to my first point. do what you do, and dont chase after every strange new technique you see. if somebody shows you a new technique, then see if you can find a way to beat it, and beat that person. if you fail each time, then maybe its time to try it out, but only to adjust your own style.
 
No offense taken. You know, if somebody really pressed the issue and asked me if I would do live sparring with no equipment, I would still be crazy enough to do it. Even if it was a Dog Brothers thing. :eek:

Mind you, I would tell them that I am rusty, in advance, and am not a fighter anymore. I would tell them I would give it my best shot. Maybe because I learning to be more of a lover than a fighter. Or, I am saving all my reserves for that one day where I do have to invest all my rage into a life or death situation to defend myself and my loved ones.

The old adage 'talk softly and carry a big stick' applies to me. Or, maybe, 'you learn to dance or you learn to run' would be better. Even the best fighters have the wisdom of when not to fight. If you asked me if I was to fight somebody in a bar who was drunk, I would rather negotiate with them as a friend I haven't met yet, and buy them some drinks instead ( they would eventually collapse and fall asleep - no harm, no foul) :D

Anyways, you get the idea. Rock on!
 
Originally posted by thekuntawman
i think we all are saying the same thing...
Click to expand...

I think we are actually describing very different psychological approaches to training.

I have the greatest respect for you and your warrior spirit though. It is pure, in a classical sense. If I were a datu preparing the young men to fight a fearsome enemy who could come out of the forest to kill their sisters and children at any time, I would want to instill the spirit that you speak of into those young men.
 
i dont think anyone is understanding what i am saying.

for a person to be the best at the fighting method they choose, you have to test yourself as much as you can. too many martial artist sees another style and switches over, and they dont even know if it is a better method than the one they are doind.

i met a guy who did tae kwon do, then switch over to jkd/kali. he told me because his tae kwon do will not make him a good fighter. this is a beginner's thinking, because learning strategy, and training hard, and getting experience will make you a good fighter, not what style you learn. if he is right, then there are no tae kwon do good fighters, and all jkd is good fighters.

when we get visitors, like this week, a kung fu san soo guy from stockton came to my place, because he wanted to see if the philippine martial arts will add to his fighting skill. so we all had a short warm up, then sparring for 45 minutes. after class he said he was disappointed because he wanted to see technique, not spar. he should have opened his eyes, because he got to see more what we are about then if i just did a bunch of pre arranged technique. he was looking for drills and pre arranged technique. i asked him if he thinks our boys are decent fighters, he said yes, but....

martial artist try to find every way to substitute for fighting, so they dont have to. this is okay if you study for appreciation of art, or fitness. but for you people who say you want to be a fighter, or self defense ("fighting"), you have to fight. when i say "i dont believed your technique", i am not saying make enemies. i am saying, when you see or meet another martial artist, dont just convince yourself its effective. see if he can prove it.

when the old manong met each other as young men, do you think they said, hey what sinawali do you know, let bang sticks? no, they had a friendly match. it helps there skills improve. then they have a true respect to each other, not just a false one. yeah, it looks "un-masterly" to say, my technique is better than those other guys, but in the philippine martial arts, every teacher (not counting the ones with foreign ideas) believes his style is best, and tells his students that. if you want to walk the street as a fearless man, you have to know, at least think you can beat the next guy. this is what the philippine martial arts does for you.
 
Kuntawman,

I get your point.

This weekend, I worked out with a guy that wanted to show me some staff work. I showed him how I moved with the staff and that I had no training, however that I do real stickfighting with only my fencing mask, and a few times without(but thats a different story). No official training with the staff, but a stickfighters understanding of power, angles, distance, and timing. When I asked him to show me some staff work, but only what translates to real combat efficiency(AKA: against someone trying to hit you), he told me that what I was doing was probably better oriented for fighting...I was like what the?!?!? He said his stuff wouldn't work too well against the way we did it. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!I/m still perplexed at why he is practicing what he was doing than? Why not make whatever he knows effective by trying it and efficisizing(is that a word?~means to make efficient;)) it. He told me that when he works out with his friends they have a thing called "do that drill". Cause they do that drill, and do that drill, and do that drill. Oh, I get it, you're a do that drill master. Don't get me wrong, some drills are fine, BUT all the old men fought before they did these drills. And then alot of times, non-fighters would "develop" them.

I'm sure that when working with the lower students, etc., his moves (to him) were "combat effective", but when a fighter asked for fighting techniques, the moves were no good? Question, why train them? Why train something that you can't pull off or are unsure of the validity? Two things might be wrong here...the person or/and the "technique".

I like to term it "technique perfection" vs "technique application", actually with the first one misusing the word. See, a lot fo MAist practice technique "perfection", until the move is crisp and perfect, and with control, etc. Wasted time, because once you try to apply the technique when it counts, usually the person has to train it all over again in a different manner. Now if you train technique application from the beginning, what technique can be more "perfect" than one that you just applied. No wondering, no worrying if it works, now you know it does or you know it doesn't. You get hit, you learn and live to fight another day.

BTW, kuntawman, it's Chad in Hawaii. I've been off here for some time now, maybe I'm back on the computer, but I've always been swinging and banging sticks. Good to see you've kept the fighting spirit alive.
 
Greetings Chad.

Lots of folks around here have been wondering what happened to you.

Good to read yer writin' again.
 
Originally posted by thekuntawman

when the old manong met each other as young men, do you think they said, hey what sinawali do you know, let bang sticks? no, they had a friendly match. it helps there skills improve. then they have a true respect to each other, not just a false one. yeah, it looks "un-masterly" to say, my technique is better than those other guys, but in the philippine martial arts, every teacher (not counting the ones with foreign ideas) believes his style is best, and tells his students that.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this. I find it so hard to work out with new guys because they want to go into this automatic "show me some of your drills", and I'll say OK try to hit me for real...

A training(definition:fighting) partner of mine will always ask who he trains with "does that work on the grass" or "have you done that on the grass". It's one of the best questions that I've ever heard asked while training, because their are only two answers: yes or no. If yes, than show it to me, if no, than lets see if you can do it to me in a fight. Bottom line, thats the way you get me to believe in what you are talking about. Anyway, that is just where I am at in my training for now.

James and I were talking last night about how when we first started fighting, we immediately threw all but the most simple and basic out the door, as far as what to train, and just started fighting. I think I had about 125 fights in those first 4 months. Started out with 3 guys and have had about 12 steady fighters. Guys that range from 17 to 40, little to no MA experience, some with extensive training, some instructors, some beginners. We always taught the new guys power strokes first, 1 block/deflection/whatever and had them start off with light sparring-like drills. Basically they try to hit each other with 1s and 2s while trying to do their "technique". Their progression has always been so much faster than any other types of training with tapping or extended combo drills. Also what you find out is that at the park, on the grass, you hear very little talk about what works, and you have very little question about who is good. You know it.

On another note, I had another guy tell me that I couldn't do a certain technique against an angle 1, because he heard that it wasn't a good idea. I than proceeded to use it against him succesfully in a real contact stickfight, just head gear. What could he say, he learned that you can use it. Now if he wants to use it, he has to learn how to use it. How do you do that?

Nice to be back.

~Chad
FCH/PFA
 
Carrying a gun definitely does not negate the need for practical self defense or martial arts training. In extreme close quarters there are concerns such as being able to create an opportunity to draw and aim if an attack is already in progress, preventing attackers from taking your weapon, positioning yourself to be able to shoot at a safer angle if in a crowd and with no backstop, such as diagonally upwards to avoid accidentally harming someone behind the attacker in the case of overpenetration, which is more of a concern at close range. Against someone with a knife at close range, my first consideration wouldn't be drawing, it would be putting space or obstacles between me and the attacker or attackers to buy myself room, to get away from them and buy myself the time to draw and shoot.

I practice regularly from both a hip holster under a jacket and front holster under a shirt, and I can draw and line up on a target within 10 to 15 feet in around two seconds. With a knife already in my hand, I can cover that distance and stick someone in about the same amount of time, maybe less. Considering that action is faster than reaction, and the attacker has the advantage, someone with a knife at close quarters is still very, very dangerous to someone with a gun. Even if you DO have your gun out already, there is no guarantee that you are going to stop someone rushing you in that time unless you score a head or spine shot.

Once you are in extreme close quarters, the knife is much harder to disarm than a gun; you can grab the gun and your only worry is keeping the barrel pointed away from you and not being clubbed. You can't very well grab a knife blade. Using my gun against an attacker armed with a knife, I want to create as much distance as possible. Using my knife against an attacker armed with a gun, assuming that running like hell is not an option, I want to get as close as I can.

Although having a gun can make all the difference in some situations, it is far from enough in others. You need both.
 
Even though I consider sparring a drill, I agree with Kuntaw's way of thinking. Sometimes, if somebody beats you, you can learn from them or vice versa. I say sometimes because you can't do every technique in a sparring match and you may lose because of that. Personally, I think I'm one of the dirtiest bastards alive when it comes down to it (I'm referring to a real street encounter). My method of fighting in a sparring match is very different than how it would be on a dark street corner.

It would be interesting for me to see how people who criticize some of the methods I use for training (like weight lifting) would do against me. I wonder how slow and stiff they would find me. ;):D

Good thread guys!
 
sparring is not real fighting, not even full contact sparring and no hold sbarred. but they all help you prepare for the real thing, and the one who has the most, he is the best prepared. when "realistic surivalist/combatives/whatever" with the fancy names, train, with the facy names for techniques and styles, people with the long lineages and pictures and stories of his masters, and people with there neat new ideas and drills for fighting. when they train, and they just practice there techniques and spar to each other, these guys are setting themself up to get hurt in a fight. yeah, it all sounds good in your own backyard, but you need to have someone you dont know to try and discredit you. good teachers and their students need to prove himself to other people. this is good for the students confidence too. they need to know how they do against other people, not just to each other. they need to try there stuff against many other styles and people who are unfamiliar to them. and what better way then matches in competition. no one is going to do it in a seminar.

each kind of competition is good for some part of your character as a fighter.

point fighting: speed, timing, reflexes, sense of urgency
full contact (anystyle): speed power, reflex, dealing with pressure, how to fight when your are nervous, how well do you take a good hit, sizing yourself to another style, and planning your strategy quickly.

sparring is not the end, but you cannot ignore it. but you use it as a tool. amd like voodoo child says, if someone has a different view to yours, you cannot just agree with him, you need to see if your way will stand up to his.
 
you need to have someone you dont know to try and discredit you.
Click to expand...

I agree. Even if you don't gain anything, you'll have a good time. I always learn more and have more fun from fighting/sparring those who study a completely different style. This is coming from a guy that trains in a "realistic surivalist/combatives/whatever" sytem ;). You must learn different fighting styles not become a master in that style, but so you're able to beat it with yours.

if someone has a different view to yours, you cannot just agree with him, you need to see if your way will stand up to his.
Click to expand...

This is one of the best things I've read. On the internet many people can be influenced in their thinking because of what some "expert" told them :rolleyes:. Everyone has an opinion folks. Ya gotta get out there and train hard/spar/do realistic combat scenarios to know for sure.

I'm not the best fighter in the world, but I train hard enough to have the confidence to say that I am a great fighter.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top