I don't want to whip a Dead Horse but...

PhilL

PhilL

Joined
Oct 1, 1999
Messages
6,490
I haven’t seen a post that’s been more offensive to me. It’s not only an insult on the Camillus/Fisk Bowie, but to all manufacturers and makers that do collaborations as well as to all of us collectors that can’t buy all the custom knives we want.

Original Thread

“Folk's, I know I will be in the minority, but to me the Fisk/Camillus knife is just a possibly well made Camillius knife and not a collectable. Take the time and money and invest them in waiting for a real Fisk which will certainly be a knife worth owning. I have waited years for custom knives and it has been well worth it. the current vogue of custom makers putting thier names to commercial cutlery and watching individuals heaping adulation on what are factory blades, has me wondering, have we lost our senses? These are just factory blades! They may be better made than the run of the mill factory blades but that doesn't make them custom or collectable.- Dick”

What is this guy saying? Production knives aren’t collectable or worth owning, if you think they are you’ve lost your senses.

He goes on to say:
“To all, I am not an elitest, I only think that if you want a Fisk, put in your order, save your money and you will obtain one.”

“I thought that waiting 7 years for a Loveless was too much. I finally ordered one from Bob, got it and am very happy with it. All the Loveless designed knives I have passed up in the intervening 30 years, would equal one real Loveless.”

I wonder if Jerry Fisk would appreciate this guy saying, “Don’t buy this knife”.

No, this guy isn’t an elitist, everyone should wait seven years for your next knife. Luckily it’ll give you the time to save the thousands needed for this one knife. I know people who own some very expensive custom knives, (Loveless included) what I’ve never seen is anyone as pretentious as this guy.

“We seem to be in an era of instant gratification. I can tell you that waiting 5 or 10 years is well worth it!-
Yes, you can call me Dick.”

I don’t know Dick, but I have a real problem with the way he thinks. I was told on Chat last night that maybe I didn’t understand what he was trying to say, or that he just put it badly. I think he was perfectly clear in his opinion of what is and what’s not worth buying or collecting. So much for buy what you like and can afford. Dick has just written off 99.9% of all the knives made and 99.9% of people that post here, and I have a real problem with that.

Rant over.
 
..but who cares what he thinks anyway?If you like it buy it.His opinion is just that.His opinion.That Fisk bowie-custom or production- would be great in any ones collection.
troy
 
Funny how those Gerber-Paul collaborations, those Colt-Barry Wood collaborations, and those V.L.&A.-Scagel collaborations just keep droping in value. (Okay, so VL&A was only a distributer -- I made my point).

-Al-
 
I think in most cases it does not matter to many people if the factory version has collector value or not. I think for lots of folks, just being able to own the design and enjoy using it is enough. Take Kit Carsons or Pat Crawfords designs. I like the KFF, Point Guard, M16 and others. I feel CRKT did a good job of re-creating the designs on a large scale. There is no way I could have ordered all of those from the makers. With CRKT I was able to get them all at affordable prices and enjoy using the designs.

As good as CRKT quality is, I am under no false illusions that they approach the workmanship of the authentic customs, but even so, the quality is good, and I got them when I wanted them.

Some people dont want to wait for a Fisk, others may not be able to afford it or whatever. Camillus has taken the design, and under the watchful eye of Jerry, they have re-created it as closely as possible. This will make a Fisk design avaliable to those who want one and for many thats probably enough to make them happy, and thats what counts.
 
If nothing else, collaborations can raise the standards of the factory line. There is little incentive for a custom maker to work with a company whose products will lower his reputation, instead of raising theirs.

And a good, if low-cost collaboration is good advertising. Like trading, it gives a new enthusiast a chance to see and try out the designs, at least, of famous makers before spending unavailable money on them.

Of course, many companies now routinely produce much greater numbers of different models of high-quality knives than not many years ago. It is no disgrace to buy a solid, hard-working factory knife.

Anyway, most of us here are a kind of elitist -- we want to know every significant fact about our knives, we want the best we can get. But best doesn't have to mean most unobtainable.
 
Phil, I thought you beat a dead horse everytime you...........nevermind.

I agree with you on this one, for alot of people this is as close as they'll get to a Fisk, and if they like it, they should buy it. There is a possiblility it will go up in value but there's no guarranty. So what? People should buy what they like! That is the whole point of collecting to me. Before getting into collecting customs I had a huge production knife collection and I enjoyed it just as much as I do my collection now. I still have a collection of Buck 112's with different dated blades and handle materials that I enjoy immensly and add to when I can. It sits in my safe right next to the customs. Folks, knives are supposed to be fun! If you're looking for investments I'm sure there are better places to make money.
I've been collecting knives for over 20 years and have enjoyed every one I've bought. Sometimes I think it was better in the days before the internet where the knife collecting pace was slower and people just enjoyed their knives instead of worrying about what they're worth.
Here's another good point about this collaboration to me and it is my opinion only and if you don't like it, I'm sorry but I'm entitled to my opinion. This collaboration is being made in America by an American company. This is very important to me, being a patriot, and part of the American blue collar work force. Even though I am friends with some makers who have collaborations with other companies and own some of their customs, I do not buy their collaborations that are made in overseas cheap labor markets. This is very important to me. BUT, if it doesn't matter to you and you like them, buy them! That's what this whole thing is supposed to be about, buy what YOU like.

Thanks, and have a pleasant day :D
 
What really really got my feathers ruffeled about this guy's post is that he was telling people not to buy it, for whatever reason. Instead of thanking WillF and JerryF for all their hard work to bring this knife out, he jumps in on a postive thread about the knife and trashes it (with his skewed sense of value) and just about every other knife made. :mad:

Don't get me wrong I think Hi-end buyers are good for the knife industry. It's regrettable that he thinks so little of the rest of us. I think the only way I could have more respect for Jerry Fisk is if he refused to sell this guy a knife. :p
 
I think factory custom collaborations are fun and do raise the bar as far as quality is concerned. It also allows someone who likes the design but not the price of the real deal to have a well made knife with a custom makers touch. Not trying to burst anyones bubble, but what is collectible? If you think your knives sold sometime in the future regardless of if they are customs or not, are going to be worth big money.........I think your mistaken. They may be worth more than you paid, but hopefully so is your house. I would buy them because you enjoy them and not worry about attaching labels. But Dick's point is well taken. These are not likely to truly be collectors items anymore than the stuff Franklin Mint sells in all the sunday magazine ads.
 
FWIW, I didn't find the tenor of his post all that offensive, but then I took it as more promoting the custom version of a knife rather than a custom design produced by a factory.

I don't think he meant to be slanderous or disrespectful, but hey, what do I know? You can read anything into it that you want, but I still don't think the intent was to incite.
 
Originally posted by Mike990
But Dick's point is well taken. These are not likely to truly be collectors items anymore than the stuff Franklin Mint sells in all the sunday magazine ads.
Click to expand...

What is "truly collectors items"? Do you know how many people collect different things that you may have no interest in. Are you and Dick going to tell everyone here what is and isn't collectable?

Another county heard from. :rolleyes:
 
It is just the same old "don’t buy a production knife when you can get a custom instead" line that I’ve been ignoring for years. At least he isn’t using it as a ruse to promote his own business or wares, a common occurrence on these forums.
 
If Jerry Fisk thought this was a good idea, this whole collaboration thing, then that's all I need to know. I'd buy one if I couldn't make it myself. Jerry's from Arkansas where there are some really fine makers doing business. And Jerry made Camillus tow the mark on the quality before he would put his stamp of approval on it. Again, that's all I need to know. The knife ain't really a true Fisk knife. But Jerry gave it the nod. What more do you need to know? Not collectible? Get real. Any knife with Jerry's stamp of approval will be a collectible. Any questions?
 
Originally posted by lifter4Him


I agree with you on this one, for alot of people this is as close as they'll get to a Fisk, and if they like it, they should buy it. There is a possiblility it will go up in value but there's no guarranty. So what? People should buy what they like! That is the whole point of collecting to me.
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That's the way I see it too. Custom? Production? <i>I don't give a damn, just as long as I like it I will buy it. </i> The way I see it, there are only two rules etched in stone about the knife collecting hobby:

<li> Have fun
<li> Buy what you like

End of story.
 
Originally posted by PhilL
Another county heard from. :rolleyes:
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C'mon Phil, for such an opinionated guy you sure are thin skinned when someone else voices a countering view. ;)

Honestly, I think you're making a lot more of this than the original person you're taking issue with intended. (However, I can only speculate since I've never had contact with that party.)
 
Anothers opinion really shoud not hit you so hard my friend. Buy, use and collect what you like. Don't get me wrong I love customs, handmades, small shop produced or whatever you want to call them and there is nothing wrong with focusing on them, but I still get excited over well done factory knives. Sitting on my desk at the moment is a Camilus EDC and a mini AFCK. Been working in the yard all day and I have had my Talonite (Ralph/Simonich) in my pocket.

As far as collaborations they are good for both handmade and factory knives and the people participating. Makers learn and factories are pushing some envelopes on quality. Some of my favorites are the MT Cameleon, SOCOM and LCC. Sebenza's are great cutting tools. The BM 45 was a very nice knife. I recently picked up a Becker and a Point Guard for a friend. Great knives and there are many more. Heck I have not even mentioned slip joints yet :).

Many of these are great users and with a little thought some have shown to be decent investments. (a few better than decent) (BM-45, Beretta/Busfield interframe (talk about a heck of a nice knife), Cameleon, Halo I, Gerber/Paul's, Case Classics and others).

Here is another opinion:
My bet is that this particular collaboration will most likely hold it's value at the least and has a very strong chance of being a decent investment over time and no matter what anybody says, I hope to own one.
 
Originally posted by Blues
C'mon Phil, for such an opinionated guy you sure are thin skinned when someone else voices a countering view. ;)
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Blues, you know me and you know I ain't thin skinned, (heck I ain't thin nowhere) but when somebody groups the Camillus/Fisk Bowie with the Franklin Mint, I gotta throw a flag and call him on it.

I don't see this as a difference in opinion, I see someone who hasn't seen the knife tell people NOT TO BUY IT! That's wrong, uncalled for and out of line. The guy only buys custom, that's nice, but to say no production knife or collaboration is worth buying or collecting is heresy.

I say burn him at the stake. :D
 
Well, I gotta admit, "Franklin Mint" are fighting words!!! ;)
 
It is my opinion that a person could collect just collaboration knives and have a great time collecting. This may end up being a very highly collected sector of the industry. If, and I think when, collaborations get their own group of collectors, who knows how much some of these knives will be worth.

This is just my opinion as is Dicks' opinion only his. It is an opinion that I disagree with, but think that he has every right to have. He can say not to buy a knife because it will never have any collectors value if he wants and we all have the ability to agree or disagree with him. Personally I could care less if any knife I buy ever has value to collectors.

I must say that I disagree with his statement that it is only a possibly well made knife from Camillus. With all that Jerry did to make sure that this knife would only be produced if it met his standards, I am sure that this is far more that just a well made Camillus. If he is actually saying that with all of the input from Jerry, that this is only a possibly good knife, then I think that that is an insult to Jerry. I say this because Jerry said this knife would only be produced if it was good enough to have his name associated with it
 
PhilL,
I do not know Dick, nor do I own any custom knives, as I cannot afford any, but I think you are indeed flogging a dead horse.

The original question was:
“Camillus OVB Fisk Bowie: User or Investment Piece”
Dick is obviously of the opinion that it is not an investment piece. He answered the question.

Dick has the right to express his opinion. The same as you have the right to yours.
Personally I think that it is a good thing that there are people like Dick who can see past the hype and marketing ploys used by some of the large manufacturers. It keeps my feet on the ground.

He was eloquent and the tone of his post was friendly and in no way demeaning.

If his post is, as you put it, the most offensive post you have ever read, I take it that you are not offended by the mindless nonsense you tend to write in the "Whine and Cheese" forum.
 
Originally posted by oupa
I take it that you are not offended by the mindless nonsense you tend to write in the "Whine and Cheese" forum.
Click to expand...

Why would I be offended by the mindless nonsense I wrote in W&C or any forum? If I did offend myself I would sit myself down and have a long talk with myself about it. :rolleyes:

May I call you Dick also?
 
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