I Got a new blower and o baby.

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Jun 11, 2006
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I got a new blower for my forge finely and man its sweet. it is normally used for a furnace but now its on my forge. its a shaded poll moter so i can control the speed with a fan control. it is a cast aluminum housing that has like a 2.5" round output. i tried something last night to see if it would work and man it made a huge difference. the case is sealed and tight so no air leaks out of the casing. so i noticed that there is a vacuum line fitting on the back side of the blower case. so i connected my gas line to that and fired it up. turned on the blower and light a ball of paper in the forge and slowly turned on the gas. the forge caught and started to warm up. man it burns so nice, i can notice a huge difference in the amount of mixing I'm getting compared to my lase set up. I will post a picture later to day of my set up.
 
JT,
If I am getting you right ,you are mixing the gas in the fan chamber and letting the fan deliver the gas/air mix?

If the above is YES, then.... STOP...TURN THE FORGE OFF, AND DO NOT RUN IT THIS WAY. You have a big chance of an explosion or fire the way you are doing it.

The gas should mix downward from the fan by a good bit. Most setups have at least 12" of air manifold before the gas is injected. If you want to improve the mixing, add an expansion chamber. You can add a twisted piece of steel in the chamber to baffle and mix the gas/air. This will really enhance the burner efficiency. See Kevin's site for more info.
Stacy
 
Nice! I am not familiar with adding the gas into the blower, but it sounds like a good way of mixing it (edit, I was considering a chance of explosion, but I meant 'good' if it worked safely :)).
 
JT,
If I am getting you right ,you are mixing the gas in the fan chamber and letting the fan deliver the gas/air mix?

If the above is YES, then.... STOP...TURN THE FORGE OFF, AND DO NOT RUN IT THIS WAY. You have a big chance of an explosion or fire the way you are doing it.

The gas should mix downward from the fan by a good bit. Most setups have at least 12" of air manifold before the gas is injected. If you want to improve the mixing, add an expansion chamber. You can add a twisted piece of steel in the chamber to baffle and mix the gas/air. This will really enhance the burner efficiency. See Kevin's site for more info.
Stacy

Ya i have been wondering that but my question is this, not that I'm doubting you at all because i trust you very much. why is it bad, i don't have any leakage of gas as it is sucking it in and blowing it into the forge. the gas is not exposed to the motor at all. i guess some fluke accident like a blade coming off and hitting and making a spark but the casing is aluminum. just wondering why that's all.

Nice! I am not familiar with adding the gas into the blower, but it sounds like a good way of mixing it (edit, I was considering a chance of explosion, but I meant 'good' if it worked safely :)).
looks like you and Stacy posted at the same time.

I have had one back flash into the fan chamber but i must admit it was nothing compared to what i would get with my old set up. I actually said to my self man that was nothing compared to my last blower. the reason for the back flash was i had not got the fan running fast enough. just got a little flame out the air sucking in hole :rolleyes: and that was it. but because the blades where spinning the flame lasted a mil a sec and was gone back into the forge.
My old setup would make an explosion sound like a potato gun and i was worried about it popping the doors off my forge. before i got my old setup glued together when i would get a back flash it would blow all my plumping parts apart.
 
I remember a guy on daily planet (Canadian science news show) who ran jet fuel through turbo chargers and light them up, the results were like a jet engine, pretty neat. Reminds me of this.
 
JT,

The blower itself can create sparks that could set off an explosion inside of your blower. Cast aluminum bits shooting everywhere like a grenade. I've seen this happen with a plastic blower housing. It's nothing to mess around with....
 
Okay... a little bit of fire mechanics for you...

A flame will not flash back into a combustible mixture in an enclosed space that is moving faster than the flame front speed. For propane that is about 12ft/sec. What that means is that if you lit a fire at your blower as it is now, it would flash, pop, and be blown out into the forge and not continue to burn. You are at a relatively low pressure, so no explosive (supersonic detonation) effects should ever be seen. However, you have a real chance for deflagration (subsonic burning) IF you get an ignition source back into the blower/manifold area. The problem is this: if that deflagration happens in a large enough volume of propane/air mixture, your blower assembly may come apart from overpressure.

I'm a chemical engineer, so I like new ideas like this, and instead of dissuading you from doing it I'll try to help you take as much risk out of it as possible. This has the potential to be more efficient and consistent than a post mix burner.

Here's what you are going to have to do to do this right:

You need to have a blower with a known capacity (preferrably one with a published speed vs. flow curve) and size your outlet manifold to always stay above 12 ft/sec even at the lowest fan setting. You also need to make the outlet manifold out of pipe that can withstand the high pressure that may encountered when things go haywire. That's pretty much any steel pipe. That manifold needs to be as short as possible to minimize the amount of gas that would be involved in a flashback. There can be ZERO leaks. That means welded or caulked joints and daily leak testing with soapy water WITHOUT gas in the blower. The blower needs sealed bearings (which they propbably are). Also, you need to make sure you always shut the gas off before you shut the motor down.

Now, in reality you aren't going to find that blower. It's okay. You can use the one you have now if you do an easy test. Using a suitable outlet pipe (2" should work since it's the blower outlet size) without your flare on the end, set up the blower to blow toward something that won't catch on fire (outside). Set up a propane torch to the side of the outlet with the flame pointing toward the outlet at an angle. Turn your blower on full blast, then add gas until you get a flame out of the end that will just sustain itself. Now, cut back on the gas until the flame goes out and dial the blower back until it relights. Do it again and again until finally you get a flashback. These are your unsafe minimum gas/blower settings. To get a safe minimum, add 20% to both to account for the pressure drop you get in your burner and a safety factor and DO NOT GO BELOW EITHER OF THESE SETTINGS!!!!! Here's what you just did: the gas and air combine to make some given velocity in the tube. By setting the blower and adding gas until it will just sustain a flame, you are finding the lower flamability limit. Then by cutting the gas back and chasing it with the burner you are doing the same over and over again. The LFL is the leanest mixture at which a gas will burn, and also happen to be the point at which you are putting the least gas with the most air. This makes the lowest manifold velocity possible and also keeps you away from the safety issues associated with a richer mixture, since what is coming out of the end of the manifold will NEVER catch on fire if it is too lean. When you find the point you have a flashback, the combined air and gas velocity was less than 12 ft/sec, and is unsafe. You set your minimum above this because putting the flare on the end will slow things down a bit because of pressure drop, but you would not get a reliable flashback with it on there, and that's why you test without it, then you add a little for safety.

So, now you've found an operating envelope and you can adjust gas and blower anywhere above your lower limits and have a combined velocity above 12 ft/sec and will not get a spontaneous flashback. Now, if an ember gets into the blower inlet it will flash, but since you have a small manifold it will be over quickly and with little gas involved. DO NOT add an expansion chamber with this setup. Slow is bad, and an expansion chamber slows things down. That could become a combustion chamber and get real hot real fast.

This is a good idea; it just has to be done safely. This is what I would do if it were me doing it, but you are free to do however much or little of it as you see fit.

Taylor
 
I'm not going to say it's a good idea or not, but one of the last times I was at Grant Sarvers shop... owner of Off-Center forge, famous for tongs, texturing dies, blowers, the Kick Azz hammer, etc... And Grant had one of his small shell forges running with the gas line plumbed right into one of his small blowers.
 
Dude, do not, I repeat DO NOT blow yourself up...at least until you get my Christmas knife finished! :D Be safe, serioulsly though. Blow your air into the gas stream, not gas into your supply:eek:
 
All of the 3 and 4 burner industrial and school Johnson Gas Forges have the gas entering the center of the blower. (Straight at the shaft). I've had two of them and haven't blown anything up yet. The older ones had a gate valve to adjust the gas, the one I have now has a ball valve. They have a pretty good sized blower and the motors run at 3450 rpm.
 
All of the 3 and 4 burner industrial and school Johnson Gas Forges have the gas entering the center of the blower. (Straight at the shaft). I've had two of them and haven't blown anything up yet. The older ones had a gate valve to adjust the gas, the one I have now has a ball valve. They have a pretty good sized blower and the motors run at 3450 rpm.

thats good to know, i just see it as being a good way to get a good fuel to air mix. here is a picture of the blower i have. it is a picture i found on line but you can see the vacuum line tube on the casing in the picture. seams to be a very nice blower plus it has the little built in gas injector pipe :D

Tempstar%20Inducer%201013833.jpg
 
OK, have fun, but really think about what may happen with a power failure, or pulled/tripped on power cord ( I have seen the cords all over the floor in your pictures). :eek:

Remember, this is a low pressure low volume blower set-up, you aren't making a rocket. All the mixing needed can be done in a small mixing chamber prior to the nozzle.:)

And just in case....can I have Bubba Dolls phone number?:D

Stacy
 
The Johnson's also have solenoid valve in the line that shuts off the gas if the power fails.
 
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Here is my take from reading the thread. With some effort, it can be done safely. The question you need to ask yourself is if you are going to go thru all the steps to do it that way and make sure everything stays in order good enough to keep it safe. Be honest with yourself. Enjoy your new blower and forge. Jim
 
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Listen to Stacy, and all the other warnings! In my time I have seen the results of three forge explosions from this type of setup. One of those incidents resulted in TWO deaths, the individual and a bystander.

You screw around too much with this stuff....or stop respecting it, and it WILL get you.
 
All of the 3 and 4 burner industrial and school Johnson Gas Forges have the gas entering the center of the blower. (Straight at the shaft).

I'm not a forger but I can tell you this much after 32 yrs. in the HVAC trade. K.R. has it right " Straight at the shaft " . The design of a blower wheel is the air is sucked in at the main opening . A vacuum at your port is only created with the motor at full speed or near full speed and is only created due to the air flowing past the port causing an air flow venturi reaction . It is not a true 100% suction port . I know that blower design very very well . Just my 2 cents and I agree with others , do not do it . A pressure can actually build up behind the blower wheel and push the gas out where the motor shaft enters thru the housing .
 
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