I got sick and tired of so much poor advice about knifemaking without knowing anythin

Joined
Jun 6, 2000
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May be of interest, but I am geting a knife made to test Talonite as a good material for a med sized camp knife. It will be a custom scratch built design by myself. I am considering who to get to make it! Tom challenged me to do this. We will see once and for all in an unbiased and honest test whether it works for me anyway!I will report on the 'diary of a knife' and go through, step by step, the
trials a tribulations of designing and getting a custom knife made. Once it
is built I will test it and report on its performance. I and my kind sponsor
Tom, would like to show the group, really what is involved and how well it
aught to go, or not as the case may be. I hope some of you will find this
interesting and of value. If any of you have any suggestions of what you
would like to see or have me do (no rude comments please!)please feel free
to post to the group. I will consider carefully all suggestions, and
appreciate your time.
It is my intention to keep the group up to date and show the newer members,
what knife making and designing is really like. As Tom told me, there is a
lot of bad advice going around in this group (paraphrasing) and many people
run off at the mouth in an ill educated fashion at times! Don`t take offence
I have done that at times also!

Have a good one!

W.A.

 
W.A.

A couple questions on this.

Exactly what are your expectations for the knife?

What will this unbaised and honest test consist of. Actually, it's already biased because it is what you think the knife should do. Which is fine, it's your knife and your test.

Exactly what is your back ground in designing?

Have you done this before with a maker?

I think it's great you are doing this to educate the knife buying public. I to am all for elminating bad or wrong information.

So you best throw in what your back ground is in custom knives.

Lastly, be careful what you report. Remember, this is only 1 knife and 1 maker using 1 type of blade material.

Having ordered my fair share of knives from more custom knife makers then I can remember. I'm very curious to see your results.

By the way, who are you and who is Tom?

I look forward to your future posts on this project!



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Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur

http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Tom is Tom Waltz of Carbide Processors. This situation evolved on rec.knives in which a full testing procedure was outlined as well as the reasons for the specific tests being done. You might want to dig around there a little for some background info. "Opinions sought on tough fixed blade" was one thread title, "Challenge answered" was another.

In regards to the biased comment, this is only true in regards to the conclusions not the methods. Saying a method is biased is a fairly serious claim and not something that should be thrown around lightly. In any case, as long as he is clear upon what reasons (tests he has done) he is basing his conclusions on, the reader can decide for themselves how to apply the review to their use.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Tests are always biased. For instance you use the test of a 1" rope to show cutting ability.

Well obviously a 10" distally tapered thin blade is going to cut it better than a 4" drop point blade.

Conversely, if you are talking about delicate seperation of the lining between an animals bowels and the edible meat, then you probably want to go with a drop point hunter blade.

Statistics and tests can all be manipulated prior, during and after the testing is complete.

Cliff, when testing a blade's ability. Other things come into play than just the design of the knife or the edge of the knife. Proper heat treating, type of edge, sharpening technique(s), proper metalury, physics,skill level of the maker, etc.

What controls are being implemented on this "test" to assure top quality along the way. Since it's Talonite, no heat treating is involved. What about the quality of the Talonite, will it be free of impurities that might hurt it's ability to cut? Who will determine this? What techniques will the maker use to sharpen this knife? Are those the best available or is it just the way he/she has always done it?

As W.A. wrote "As Tom told me, there is a
lot of bad advice going around in this group (paraphrasing) and many people run off at the mouth in an ill educated fashion at times!"

So the last thing we want is W.A. giving tainted test results because they were biased.

Cliff as you know, all knives will eventually fail. More times than not the bad information given here is by those who are testing the knife outside it's intended limits. Kinda like the spine of the blade of a folding knife being whacked against a table.

Im still trying to get someone to tell me when during the course of regularly using a folding knife would you do that?

To tell the truth, Im actually looking more forward to the diary in regards to the process of getting the knife. That's where the humor is. I once asked a Knife Magazine editor if he would run an article that I wanted to write called "the 50 best excuses I have gotten from custom knife makers." While he thought it would really be funny, it just wouldn't be PC. Oh well, I tried!




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Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur

http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Les you are using the word biased very incorrectly as it applies to testing and data. You need to look at what conclusion is being drawn, only then can you judge if the test is biased or not. If I am trying to determine which of two knives is a better fillet blade then using cod as a stock material is unbiased. However if I am trying to see which blade cuts better, then cod would bias the test in favor of a blade designed to cut flesh.

As for many of the aspects you describe, yes they are important and if overlooked can seriously skew results even make them meaningless. However they are far from impossible to deal with. As long as you are clear in what you are doing, as well give the details from the maker, and use several knives as baselines you can give a well defined performance estimate.

Now of course this will be of one blade (or however many you are testing). However it is at this point that the maker steps in and comments based on his experience if the performance is representative of his work. If he says it is *and* will back this up then you can extrapolate the review to his such blades in general. If he says it is not representative then either the material is flawed or he did something wrong in which case he makes another blade, or the reviewer is dishonest in which case he asks for another reviewer.

In real life, no one tests multiple pieces of equpiment as you just can't afford it. You buy one if it specs as better than what have. You test this one piece and check to see if it meets the specs and if it does you are set, and if it doesn't you talk to the manufacturer and go with either a refund or a replacement depending on hwat their take or the result is; representative or not. You also discuss this with people in a similar field and ask them what their take on the equipment is of course. You will get a very consistent answer if you ask across the user base and thus by *defination* the evaluations are unbiased.

As for the spine whack, this was covered in detail in a few threads in the review forum where several people cited how the lock can take impact and load forces against the lock so as to close it during normal cutting.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 10-02-2000).]
 
First things first.
1. I have no background in knife designing. This is intended to show how an inexperienced individual can get a custom knife made.
2. I am taking a Degree in Literature, so I am fully aware of the implications of bias and being unfair towards a knife or material.
3. I do not want this to become an argument between Cliff and Tom. I have already been accused of being in one or the other ‘camp’
4. For the record, I am VERY interested to see if Talonite will do the job as advertised.
5. I had up to now no info on who Tom was or what he did, thanks Cliff!
6.I have no experience in custom knives at all. I do not even own one; I do however have many friends including custom makers and BRL. I know a fair amount about blades, and have been a serious collector for nearly ten years.
7. I am interested only in what a knife will do in the real world.
8. I will test this knife as a tough (i.e. not ceramic type) camp knife. In short, good for chopping and cutting tough stuff. I know what tool abuse is and I do not mean tin cans etc rather hard wood and rope.
9. I never considered Talonite as a good choice due to cost and certain comments. I will gladly test the material and step by step show how it works. I own many knives including fixed blades made from 425, 440a, 1095 and D2 steel. I am very aware how good top end steel can be, my current carry folder is a 710 in M2 steel Pre prod run 247.
10. I hope this will not become a ‘you are biased’ or ‘what is his angle’ etc.
11. I get a nice knife, and share my experience with the groups, that is it. I also get my perfect knife (I hope!)

W.A.


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My basic test criteria at the moment. I have never done this before.When I made my requirements clear, I was describing a set of
vague criteria for a tough knife that would stand up to the day to day
rigors of camp use. Allow me to explain what a typical camp day is for me.
But first, I have no intention of testing any knife to destruction. Yes
others do this and often break knives. That was never, ever, my intent,
period. My typical camp needs are as follows.

1. Cut firewood, this includes slicing branches and heavy chopping of said
branches. The actual very heavy work is done by a med sized axe.
2. Use the knife to 'feather' the wood so that it will light more easily.
3. Use the knife to make kindling, by shaving it. This means it must still
be usable at this point
4. Use the knife to do a little digging, to make the placement of pegs
easier.
5. Use the knife`s back to hammer in pegs.
6. Use the knife to cut, prepare and dress food.
7. Use the knife to cut various things at the camp site, such as rope,
string and other soft materials.
8. In extreme cases use the knife to open a bottle or can. I would add
however that this is an emergency feature, and I would NEVER EVER do it
myself. I am always well equipped. It is nice to know that the knife could
take it however.
9. The ability to perform in the wet, cold, heat and snow, typically found
in beautiful North Wales.
10. A sheath that will not let the knife fall out when hiking, or damage the
knife edge. It must also be comfortable to wear and not to heavy.
11. The knife must have a lanyard hole for safety and feature a handle that
will not get damaged easily or cause blisters or irritation when used.
12. The knife must be easy to control with one hand and be balanced slightly
tip heavy.
13. Very good rust resistance would be a highly desirable feature, but is
the one thing that could be sacrificed to get all of the above.
14. The ability to resharpen in the field with a small DMT stone or similar.
15. An edge profile that allows simple re working.
16. A material that will not chip out even when used to dig or prod in stony
ground (and I mean gently!)
17. A knife that will take moderate prying, in other words a thick strong
profile.

These are my basic requirements. I think a Benchmade Nimravious plain in M2
or a Bob Dozier Pro Camp Guide, would do all of the above. I am however not
convinced by Talonite, from what some have said. I am quite willing however
to give it a go with my specs for a knife.

Yes I will defiantly test in in a realistic situation, no I will not test it
to destruction by putting it in a vice and bending it or cutting cans in
half. I have no interest in seeing if a knife can do the things of a
different tool unless I am asking it to perform moderately stressful tasks.
A knife is a knife after all. I greatly resent the suggestion that I was in
some way puffing and blowing without substance. I made the challenge as a
light hearted comment not thinking a response would be forthcoming. I made
light and apologize if you thought I was being offensive or confrontational,
that was never my intent.

I greatly appreciate your extreme generosity in offering to loan my one of
your personal knives. That shows integrity and uncommon decency. However as
I stated I am not a tool abuser and would not even contemplate putting
someone else`s knives through a typical camp day in my end of the Earth. As
I stated I have plenty of showy blades made from very expensive tool steels
that would do the job, probably, yet over tempering and brittleness holds me
back.

I will test it in a situation that no lab test or destruction
test can match. I will try it on a few days camping and compare it to my D2
tool steel Ka Bar, which is a seven inch knife, and for a benchmark, will
use my Ontario Marine knife in 1095 steel. Both are larger knives so I
expect them to outperform my own knife in some areas, yet be beaten in
others. After all I find them a little to large as a med sized camp knife. I
will post the results to the group in exacting detail and will be happy to
answer ANY questions about its performance. As you have paid for the knife
it is of course yours. I will return it as requested. I am not a thief. I
give you permission to quote me and use any of my comments as an advert or
whatever. I am independent of you or any company involved in knives etc and
would like my impartiality as a tester recognized by all.

To recap I will test this knife as a knife, I will test it in the real world
in ways I would put any of my own knives through. I will respect this knife
and have no problem seeing it tested by others even if they severely damage
or break it. In short while I would not put it in a vice and break it, if
others deem to do so, so be it. I hope they won`t and instead test it like
I have in a practical and fair way.
W.A.



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A Talonite blade should be easily able to do all of those things. I have several blades made from Cobalt based materials and they can all handle that type of work fine. However your results will depend of course on how much wood you are chopping and how much force you are using to do it as well as your technique, same goes for digging and such.

As for testing to destruction by cutting cans in half, even large drums are very easy to cut up with a decent knife as the metal is very soft. David Boye chopped through a 55 gallon drum with a dendritic 440C chefs knife with only minor damage to the edge. That is a very weak blade profile, and one of the more brittle steels.

If you actually broke a knife trying to cut up a can I would be interested to know exactly what type of can and what brand of knife was used. It would be possible of course if you are tremendously strong and did a lot of very hard and fast twisting and prying through the can, but that is not really cutting.

I will be interested to see how your Talonite blade compares to the others you mention. You might want to drop Mission Knives a line and see if you can't get a Ti-MPK off of them to include in the review. It has similar properties to Talonite (high corrosion resistance, high wear resistance, good durability, similar RC).


-Cliff
 
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